Question for Bill Bailey

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Re Training Cass to do blinds

Postby Bill Bailey » Sun 02 Mar 2003 5:21 pm

Reply to RS
Probably 75% of Cass's training throughout his career was on marks. Probably 100 % until I had to retire from Novice on 03/08/1974 aged approx: 2 yrs old. We ran in Restricted from 27/10/1974 - 24/05/1975. In the gap between Novice and Restricted I would leave him tied up, walk out and put blinds out in a "line" without leaving a scent trail for him to follow. Then I would heel him out, almost to a position down wind of the first "dummy". He gradually got the idea of going in the direction I pointed to.
Because I had not yet succeeded in teaching Cass to keep going for a couple of hundred metres, in a straight line. All I did in his first few "apprentice years" was to give him a line to a point downwind of the fall, on blinds. Then a few more commands when he needed them. As he got better he needed fewer commands.
As he got more experienced and knew what was expected I started to give him longer blinds. For example I would put a blind into some "interesting cover" with say 80 - 100 metres of pretty clear ground between the "firing point" and the blind. Then I would heel Cass up to the firing point and point to the "interesting cover" and whisper "where is it ?" He would lift himself ready to go, while looking in the right direction. I would then whisper "Good Dog" and "Fetch" loud enough to be heard (in a trial.
Later I would repeat the process with the "blind" 25, 50, 75, 100 metres further on than the original "interesting cover". If there was interesting cover where I needed it, I would use it so that he checked all the interesting cover, on the line I had given him initially, with fewr and fewer "follow up" commands. In this way I tried to use "stepping stones" to take Cass from his current level of ability to his next level and so on.
At all times I wanted him to make his ground good from where I sent him, until he winded the game. I think the longest line he ever took on a blind without any additional commands was about 200 metres. I just let him "work the line" on his own, to see how he went.
So far as training was concerned, I just tried to put Cass in a working situation "in the field" and gradually increased the difficulties of terrain, remembering the fall etc. My aim was to have him reach a standard of physical fitness, memory and ability such that any run in a trial would require no more than 50% of what he was capable of. Some times the runs were more of a test for me, than for Cass. He always knew what he was doing, I doubt if I could make the same claim.
Modern ideas ?
I probably did some of the things that are mentioned in some of the latest ideas that I have read about on Peter's web site, but if I did, I did not know it at the time.
Many of the terms used mean nothing to me. Some I can sort of work out but many are guesswork from my limited knowledge. I think many of the ideas are good, as I understand them.
I think it would probably be fair to say that my retriever training largely depended for its success on the fact that Cass was an exceptional natural retriever. He "got the message" very quickly.
The time I spent on actual training with Cass during the week, was probably no more than 10-20 minutes a day. If I could I would spend a day at Penrith doing runs with Ronnie Cooper and John Palmer and their dogs.
I think the time frame and training programme has to vary to suit the dog and the handler. If the dog does the lesson without fault, repeat it a few times in a slightly different form, so that it becomes a habit. Then take it a little further, if succesfull and gradually build a habit of perfect work.
Being an asthmatic, many days I could do no more than let Cass run to keep himself in condition.
People often ask me "How did you train Cass" to do something or other. I think the truthfull answer is that with a bit of a start from me, he pretty well taught himself.
Starting with the knowledge I have to-day, I think Cass would have achieved success more quickly than he did. As it was I had to learn as I went and try to keep up with my student.
regards Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:54 am
Location: sydney

Training Cass - handling skills

Postby Bill Bailey » Wed 05 Mar 2003 7:29 pm

In reply to RS
Hopefully some additional information and answers to your questions.

GIVING COMMANDS
Like everyone else I have "blotted my copybook" but over time I learned the wisdom of never sounding cross or bad tempered while training or handling. As soon as your "body language" tells your dog that you are "mad" in some way. His attention goes to your "body language" and the lesson or handling is history. If your dog "does not care" about your body language, he is unlikely to gain much from your commands or your lesson, anyway. When I needed to show displeasure in training, I just gave a "warning growl" followed by a quiet but firm No. I found it worked quite well.

I learned a very important lesson at the very first Championship that I watched. It was the 1974 N S W Championship, results were as follows:-

1974.
1st.F.T.Ch.R.T.Ch. TESROSE KARLA. Mr C.BALL. (VIC) LAB.F.
2nd.R.T.Ch. CASRAY BEAU. Mr K.JAMES. (NSW) LAB.M.
3rd.R.T.Ch. KAEMAJAE TAMMY. UD. Mr/Mrs W.LOFTUS. (NSW) LAB.M.
4th. SANDYCASADOR WISH. Mrs I.HALFORD. (NSW) LAB.F.
5th. NO OTHER DOGS FINISHED.

JUDGE/S Mr J.DEAKIN (NSW) and Mr R.H.PHILP (NSW)
Held at EMU PLAINS in (NSW) on 16/06/1974

As you can see it was won by one the best handlers of all time, with a wonderful natural retriever, that was a treat to watch. It was an education to watch and listen to the tone of voice from Charlie Ball, when handling his dog/s. It was quite obvious to me that Charlie and his dog were happily working together to achieve a common goal.
When the inevitable problems developed on a run, there was never a trace of anger or irritation in Charlie's voice. Yes, there was more emphasis but no hostility. It was a valuable lesson that I tried to make a regular part of my handling. Occasionally I "blotted my copybook" but not for long.
Which gets the most attention "Would anyone like a chocolate" or "who wants to do the dishes". When training and handling always try to sound (as often as possible) as though you are the bearer of the chocolates. In other words your commands are "the good information that your dog needs" to help locate the game that your dog is looking for. Never become an obvious "thumb on the back of the neck" handler.

People often ask me for details of Cas's career, when he learned different things etc, so I have set out a few details that could be of particular interest to anyone starting with an older dog.
Cass ran in Novice from 18/05/1974 - 03/08/1974 he gained 4 wins from 5 starts. Aged almost 2 yrs I had to teach him to handle on blinds even if he could not go for a 100-200 metres on the initial line to a blind. So I worked on his marking, handling and "blinds" from 04/08/1974 to 27/10/1974 - when he ran in Restricted. His last Restricted was on 24/05/1975 after 7 starts, he won 4 and came second in 3. He ran in his first All Age on 01/06/1975 aged almost 3 yrs. He gained his title by running in one All Age (in which we bombed out), 1974 N S W Championship in which Cass came second to Tammy by 27 points. Only 3 dogs finished that Championship. Then Cass won the next All Age.
People also often ask me, what sort of competion did Cass have. As most triallers would agree Bill Loftus's R T Ch Kaemajae Tammy (Tammy), was rightly regarded as one of the all time greats. Tammy was about a year older than Cass and of course had been well trained from puppyhood. I do not think we ever competed in an All Age or a Championship that did not involve running against Tammy. There were many other good dogs as well, usually only a point or two away from Cass and Tammy.

EARLY MISTAKE FREE TRAINING
My experience has been that a "good dog" wants to please his handler. Mistakes generally come from the handler's inability to convey his wishes to his dog, in a way that the dog understands.
Very often an enthusiastic handler will introduce a keen young dog to "retrieving the real thing" far too soon. The dog will often become more than normally excited and can then, often work in an unacceptable way. It can be too rough on picking up game, reluctant to release at delivery. May even accidently damage the game it is carrying or "play with it" before picking it up.
It is far better to avoid mistakes than to try and correct them later. The way to avoid such mistakes is to first introduce your dog to retrieving by using artificial objects, like a dummy or a lead. Teach it to hold it, heel with it, sit with it, but not to put it down (at this stage). If you do not have a dummy, use a particular tennis ball/s. Preferably ones that has plenty of your scent on them, if you like add pidgeon scent as well.
I did a lot of my early training of Cass by using "his" tennis balls. A tennis ball is easy to carry, offers little opportunity to be played with and can be used in a variety of ways, especially if you are largely training on your on (as I was).
Train your dog to do the following with his dummy or tennis ball.
Carry tenderly, deliver freely, complete a single retrieve correctly over a short distance, at home, say 5 metres. You can then gradually introduce more work. No one can tell you at what age a particular thing can be done. That is a decision for you to make with your particular dog. I tried to use "stepping stones" to move Cass from one level to a more difficult level, in easy stages.
Once my dog will do an error free retrieve over a short distance I would test his steadiness before going any further. Assuming you have trained him to retrieve a tennis ball, that is what I would use for his next exercise. Have him on his lead and then stand beside him as though you were at the firing point. Make him sit then roll the tennis ball away from him. Check him if goes to move. If all is well heel him up to that ball and then say "Fetch". Take delivery correctly with your dog facing you. Then retire with him at heel to your initial position. Repeat the process a few times say 3 or 4, but do not over do it. When finished tell him what a wonderful dog he is, play with him etc for say a quarter of the time, the lesson took.
Apart from this retrieving training you are also training your dog to switch "in an instant" from relaxed or play mode to being "all serious business". After several successful sessions on the lead, repeat the lesson off the lead. If all goes well, introduce the "next stepping stone".
Have your dog secure on his lead. Tell him to "Sit". Back away a metre or two and then slowly roll "his" tennis ball" towards him, but make sure it misses him by a metre or two. Then proceed as before, remove the lead, gradually roll the ball closer to him, until it can eventually "bump" gently into him.
When he has obviously "got the message" you can speed the ball up, have it just miss him, hit the house or another object and bounce away, sometimes bouncing out of sight. Go to him, face the "fall" and say Fetch". You will soon have him effectively doing miniature "Marks" and "Blinds" on the back lawn and into the garden. Subject to the "gardeners" approval. Remember that if your dog has not yet developed the ability to remember a "mark" for more than a minute or two, a forgotten mark is effectively an elementary introduction to "blinds".
Always consider which way the wind is blowing. Ability to scent "game" must be developed whenever you are training.
What you are seeking above all else is to build effective team work between you and your dog. In effect it is a game in which you set the rules, but it is a game that you both enjoy. Eventually your dog should "live to retrieve" and ideally your dog should seldom be aware that he is being taught anything. Try and put him in a situation where progress is in such small "pieces" that it is easier to get it right than wrong. Then repeat the process so as to build the habit of perfect execution every time.
Never worry that your dog is "behind" other dogs, just keep going steadily forward and your turn will come.
If your dog "fails" by trying to break, for example. Just make him sit, then holding the dummy or tennis ball carefully (to avoid an accidental nip), move it past your dog's face. Gradually coming in steadily until you can touch him with it, without him making any attempt to "grab it. If you are uncertain about your dog's steadiness, it would probably be a good idea to do this before you roll the ball away from him.
You should always introduce your dog to retrieving by getting him to take the tennis ball, dummy or anything else, gently from your hand. Get him to try and hold the ball, say, while it is still partially in your hand. Teach "Hold" as you give something to him. Over time Cass got to the point where he would retrieve an uncooked egg (at room temperature), jump a fence with it and give it tenderly and unbroken to hand. Only disaster was when I sent him to retrieve and he accidently stepped on the egg, because he had braked too late.
I think you should teach your dog that his physical contact with "game" must be with tenderness, in other words a "soft mouth".

Training to handle and do blinds.
At first as a "Novice handler" I had to learn how to teach Cass what he needed to be taught. I started with marks and then had to find a way to teach handling and taking a line to downwind (if possible) on a blind. It was probably a couple of years before he learned to take the line he was given and then hold it over a long distance until he winded the game. In the first couple of years he was just handled on blinds, because I had to. Later all he needed was the line and an occasional assist, in most trials. It is probably worth noting that in his first Championship event, the 1974 N S W Championship, when he came second to Bill Loftus and R T CH Kaemajae Tammy. Only 3 dogs finished the trial. Cass finished because he responded willingly to my commands so that I could handle him as needed, on blinds. I had not yet worked out how to teach him to go 200-300 metres in a straight line to a blind. That was to come in another year or two.

Handling - "Back"
This was quite easy. I would start by sitting Cass (facing me) in the middle of one of the local football fields, in a local park. Then I threw a mark behind him, then I backed away from him, for a few metres. Then I called "Cass" (that was his command to stay where he was and pay attention to me). Then I raised my right hand and pretended to throw another dummy over his head and called "Back, Fetch", at the same time. He knew what "Fetch" meant so he shot off and completed the retrieve. After half a dozen short retrieves of about 25 metres.
I would head for home.

Handling "Over"
The next day I would briefly repeat the previous day's work and just give him a couple of "Back, Fetch" and if all went well I would make a start on teaching "Over, Fetch".
I would sit him facing me without any restraint. Then I would back away from him for about 5 metres and throw a dummy to my left and another to my right. Then I would wave my hand to the left (being the first one thrown) and say "Over, Fetch".
Then I would reseat him where he had been for the first over and this time send him to the right. Again half a dozen of each was enough and home we went.
After probably about a week, he was good at getting whichever one I wanted. So I gradually dropped "Fetch", he was very good at anticipating so gradually I could just say "Cass, Back" etc.
After another week or two I would sit him facing me, throw one behind him. Say "Cass, stay" back away 10-20 metres and throw one to the left, pause to make sure he was steady and then throw one to the right.
At first I would have him pick them up in the order of fall. Once he was good at that I would mix them up. He certainly "got the idea" very quickly.
Then I gradually started to increase the distance of the retrieve, have them fall in cover and so on. Because of time and my own physical limits, I kept most of these runs to about 50 metres or less. Once Cass knew what I wanted a few longer ones gradually became "a piece of cake" as well.
Then I gradually made the work more complicated, by getting him to stop on his way to one and directing him to another. I did not do too much of this because I found it slowed him down. Because he became unsure of which retrieves had to be completed "flat out" and those that would be "interrupted" and he would be "diverted" to another.

Blinds - taking a line
Conditioning Cass and teaching Marking and Handling in all types of situations and different types of terrain took up most of my training time for the first couple of years. It is of course essential to return to old lessons to make sure that they have not been forgotten, so revision is essential..
The way I taught Cass to take a line to a blind find, was fairly simple. At first I made a complete mess of it. Because I only had limited time each morning during the week I started off by throwing a few dummies while Cass was having a run or had his head in a bush or something. Then I would call him to heel and give him a line to the "blind". He did them without any trouble.
When I gave him a line at the next stake, he practically turned and looked at me, as though to say "What are you on about ?". I was stunned. So next morning at our usual training session, I threw out a few dummies as before. This time when I had finished I called out "Cass, Fetch". Without any hesitation he then retrieved the first dummy that I had thrown. All I had to do was to say "Fetch" and he duly picked them all up. So much for throwing dummies when Cass was "not looking".
After that I had to make sure that Cass could not hear, smell or see me or the dummies. If I left him to sit behind the car, he would lie down and look under it to watch me. When I returned he would be sitting where I had left him. I only discovered this from a family friend that I had co-opted as an "observer".
At one of our early Restricted Trials, I had to leave Cass behind a station waggon "as the blind". As I walked up to the firing point the judge said "Your dog is watching you" I turned to look at the blind as Cass came into sight, jumping into the air to look over the roof of the station waggon. I told him to sit and we duly completed the retrieve.
First practice blind was the first one of a row of dummies all upwind of Cass and of each other. But not so far away that he could not scent the first one as he crossed the "line of scent", the second one could be winded as he picked up the first one.
After blinds had been placed, I collected Cass and approached the line of dummies by walking towards a spot downwind of the first one. I then turned Cass into the wind and said "Where is it ?" and pointed with my training gun (a hockey stick). At first he just looked puzzled, so I moved a pace or two further upwind and repeated "Where is it ?". As soon as he got the scent he lifted himself ready to retrieve, so I said "Good dog" then after a pause "Fetch" with all the enthusiasm I could.
Gradually he got the idea that game was to be found on the line that I had nominated. I always made a point of using Cass's obedience skills as a means of putting him downwind of the game. This enabled him to become more skilfull at using his nose. It also enabled him to demonstrate to the judge that he could not only take and hold the line he was given but that he had a good nose as well.
By varying the distance to the blind I made sure that he developed and retained his ability to locate any game on the line that he had been given. Sometimes in training he might scent a blind on his way to another blind or a mark. I could handle him as required. Eventually I taught him "Right Back" this told him that he had to pass the "nearest one" and pick up the next. This came in handy as he would scent the short one on his way out but would have a good idea as to its location. As a result he would do a top second retrieve.
On one occasion I had been shooting with Cass at a duck on the edge of a dam. I sent Cass for the duck that I knew I had shot. After delivering to hand he came round to heel and obviously wanted to go again. Since I had only shot one duck that I knew of, I was reluctant to send him again. After a while I sent him and back he came with another duck and wanted to go again. In short he retrieved five ducks in all, then showed no more interest. When I went to have a look myself, there was nothing else there to retrieve. How a dog can scent other game when he has one in his mouth I do not know, perhaps it is the intensity of the scent that tells a good dog that there are more.

Command "Easy"
Because winds could be fluky or Cass could drift a little off line to a blind, due to terrain or interesting but not relevant scents, I taught Cass to work the area upwind of him when I said "Easy". I chose "Easy" because I wanted him to "take it easy" etc.
It was simple to teach, I would place a dummy or have scattered several to lie upwind of him and unknown to him. Then I would call him so that he would strike the scent as he came towards me. When he was about to strike the scent, I called "Cass, Easy", if I judged it right he would hear my command just before he picked up the scent. It did not take long for him to get the idea.
The first time I tried that command was in a trial in the A CT. Wind was blowing diagonally from left to right, towards the firing point. Blind find was a bird at the top of an unclimable bank of the creek about 30 metres wide, in front of us. In order to climb out of the water the dog would have to go about 35 metres to the right of the bird, where there was a break in the bank. This put the dog upwind of the scent stream from the bird. Dense cover came right to the edge of the cliff. This meant the dog would have to move away from the edge of the bank and then move to his left, while out of sight in the thick cover, until he located the bird that would now be down wind of him. All the earlier dogs had trouble and some were called in.
When I sent Cass I gave him a line to the break in the bank and sent him. When I thought he was close to reaching the scent stream from the bird, I called out "Easy". The words were hardly out of my mouth, when I saw Cass turn his head towards the bird as he gave a wag of his tail. I heard someone behind me say "Show off". Cass kept going in the water, climbed out where I wanted him to and vanished out of sight. In a few seconds he appeared behind the bird, picked it up and vanished again. He duly returned the way he had gone out. I thought of changing "Easy" to "Steady" but decided to stick with what he knew.
I believe that training should be designed to develop a dog's own intelligence and ability to do the job on his own, with minimal help from his handler. Just pretend that every retrieve, mark or blind, is like trying to retrieve wounded game. Just as though you were out shooting and have dropped a lightly wounded duck in a swamp or in a river. Pretend that you know roughly where it fell but that it could be 50 or 100 metres away in any direction by the time your dog gets there. Retrieving lightly wounded game is when the serious work starts and it is up to the dog to use his educated nose and instincts to hunt likely cover. Good non-slip dogs will closely mark the fall because they know from experience that dead "game" will be found where it fell. This effectively denies them the opportunity of using their noses as much as if it was wounded game, that had moved. Blinds provide an ideal opportunity for such dogs to demonstrate their ability to take and hold a line to a position downwind of the fall and then locate the game by use of nose. In my view obedience skills should be used to allow the dog a reasonable opportunity to demonstrate his game finding skills not to effectively do the dog's job for him.

Age to start training on handling and blinds.
I doubt if you can lay down a hard and fast rule, so much depends on dog and trainer and what has already been learned. I suppose you have to back your own judgement with your own student. If you want to try a double for example set it up, so that if the dog goes for the wrong one, he will not be able to get it. Have it on a light cord so that the "game steward" can pick it up before the dog can get to it. Do not make a fuss, forget it for a while and try a few months later when your dog is steadier. I think, provided you are not too ambitious, you will soon see if your dog has any idea of what you want. If he gets it wrong, ignore it. Above all do not repeat it. Work on something else that you know your dog is certain to do correctly and try to think of an exercise that will almost certainly "bridge the gap from where he is now to where you want him to be.

Angle backs, Back piles, double T's, conditioned retrieves, transition training,
From the little I know I probably did similar types of training exercises but without inflicting any physical or emotional pain or discomfort on my dog. My aim was to have my dog moving away from me with enthusiasm because he wanted to "get where he was going" not because he wanted to "get away from where he was". I wanted my dog to look forward to his training as "having a great time". If you like "retrieving" was more fun than anything else.
I am trying to become better informed about these "new" training ideas and exercises as some of them appeal to me. I am a little nervous about "telling people how to train their dogs these days". Simply because I have not yet seen a modern trial and it seems to me that "total obedience" is now demanded rather than relying on the natural abilities of a good dog to do the job on his own.
I think the "new methods" would probably suit a professional trainer who has to build a programme to hopefully train all the dogs entrusted to him. He can spend many hours each day with his string of dogs, those that do not suit him being deleted from the group. I worked quite differently, since I only had one dog and very limited time and energy. I just concentrated on finding ideas that worked with Cass.
John Palmer introduced me to Peter Betteridge and Peter tells me that some of my ideas helped him with Gabby. To-day I hope they will help others even under different trial conditions. I would appreciate any comments, for or against.
All going well I will be coming, with Peter Betteridge, to the next N. S. W. Trial on Sunday 16/03/03.
Trust this information is of some help. Regards Bill Bailey.
Bill Bailey
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:54 am
Location: sydney

Postby Mark Sewell » Wed 23 Apr 2003 1:26 pm

Dear Bill

Thanks for all of the valuable tips you have provided throughout this website. I'm new to the retriever game and greatly appreciate all of the advice that I can find.

Regards

Mark
Last edited by Mark Sewell on Mon 21 Mar 2005 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark Sewell
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat 19 Apr 2003 12:26 am
Location: Sorrento WA

Questions for Bill Bailey

Postby M & J » Wed 23 Apr 2003 6:10 pm

Glad my ideas and what I have learned from others are of help.
Regards Bill Bailey
M & J
 

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