Line out/Line back

[Teresa Parkinson]

There is often vigorous debate about the importance of line out and the relative merits of line back.

On that note, I would appreciate any opinions and thoughts (those of judges especially!) on how line back is/should be judged and, as a result, trained for.

All comments would be most welcome!

Teresa Parkinson

[Julie Cramond]

Hi Teresa,

I hope it has not been too warm up in your part of Victoria.

Down south the weather has been wonderful, sure we have had a couple of hot days but over the last 5 days or so, a cool change with rain has freshened us all.

I think that control is the issue. If a dog cheats (to our particular standard) on the way to a mark they are sure to cheat on the return.

With all our new training methods, it sure is easier to teach our dogs not to cheat the water to and from the bird. But in my book I did not know how long it would take before I knew the dogs KNEW IT. LOL. The more high a dog is the more chance we have to fluke it, but back in the old days I had my fingers, toes and eyes crossed (until they hurt too much). Nowadays I look at it, a whole different way. Channel blah blah blah short angled entries etc.

Are you going to the Shep trial?

Julie who is hoping this answer does not bite me in the bum in two weeks time.

[Teresa Parkinson]

Thanks for your input Julie. I was beginning to think I had asked a stupid question....hell, maybe I have but then I've never let that get in the way of finding anything out before!

The weather was VERY hot over the week between Christmas & New Year but mellowed last week just in time for my parents to visit! Nothing worse than driving all the way from Melbourne only to sit under the A/C all day because it's too hot to do anything else! Thankfully, that was not the case.

On the subject of line out/line back, I can certainly see why a good line out is necessary. And I agree, it is a control issue for some dogs. In the past, I've had dogs try to 'cheat' (esp. water entries) and this has almost inevitably landed them in strife. These days I approach training for these things quite differently. Like you, I sometimes wonder how much my young dog Jock actually 'knows' is right and how much of it is just in his nature. As for the fingers crossed thing, I think I know exactly what you mean! And I think I'll be experiencing it first-hand at Shepparton - yes, I'll be there!

From a purely personal perpective, a good line back is something I happen to value highly. BUT how much deviation in line back (if any) is acceptable? When (if ever) is it OK to have a less-than-perfect line back?

A two bird cast in such a way that only a dog taking precisely the same 'honest' route back will benefit from the sight it gets is one example I can think where it would be critical to have perfect line back (Prue knows what I'm referring to! ) But then I am not suggesting for one moment that deliberately cheating water/cover on the return is acceptable.

I am simply wondering how much judges penalise less than perfect returns. For example, if a dog takes a direct angle entry en route to a bird into water but shaves the bank on the return trip, would most/any judges penalise that dog and if so, where on the score sheet are the marks deducted? How much effort do I need to put into getting nothing less than 100% perfect line back - possibly at the expense of some style, eagerness and action on the return! Not what I want.....

Am I making any sense????

Teresa Parkinson

[Gareth Tawton]

Teresa,

I suppose I look at this from two points of view. As a trainer I aim for an excellent line back as to me this is part of the "complete package". It helps ensure the dogs understanding what "straight" is. I train hard to teach my dog to go out straight and don't lower my standard and therby confuse my dog by not expecting a straight return.

With my judges hat on a line back to me is important but not as important as line out. I expect a dog to go out straight as this is the most efficient and effective way of picking up the bird. He/she is less likely to miss a bird if the dog is on the line on the way out. Howevere once the bird is picked up the getting back quickly and efficently is important and this may mean skirting a little water as distinct from running 100 meters to avoid water. As a judge I have a little more tolerance on the way back than I would on the way out. I try to judge it as I see it, it that make sense.

Gareth

[Joe Law]

Teresa,
As I see it in competition where the dogwork is being compared, it becomes fairly basic to train your dog to get out and back as quickly and directly as possible. Furthermore, the judge has selectd the test so as to evaluate the dog on how it faces the challenges of that particular line and hence any deviation from that line might be interpreted as avoiding the test that has been set. Good lines, therefore, both out and back, have become part of the game and in general it will be hard to convince a judge that your dog is worthy of high points for the retrieve if it is not running good lines without any hesitation.

Remember, not all judges confine themselves to DEDUCTING points and prefer to reward dogs by AWARDING the points to the dog that faces the test in the way that the judge intended when the test was arranged. I believe if it is not clear to you what the judge is looking for, you should ask at the briefing and I happen to believe that you are entitled to a reasonable and honest answer to such questions.

Having said all that, there will be times when the lines unfortunately become too difficult for any of the dogs:- the gullies are more like ravines, the river crossings are across rapids and the hills become cliffs; and in those cases you can only help your dog to survive by teaching your dog to handle both on the way out and on the way back. It might seem to be back-to-front, but the reality is you will need to teach your dog to handle well before you can teach your dog to run really well on difficult lines.

Personally, I am inclined to think the same way as Gareth when evaluating the relative importance of line out and line back, but that is not to say that a good line back won't beat a cheating line back.

Keep up the good work with your dogs _ the last time I saw them they were going well and with thoroughness and good practice they should continue to improve.
Joe

[Teresa Parkinson]

Thanks Gareth & Joe. I appreciate the input from you both and certainly take it on board. Believe me, every little bit helps...

Joe - more specifically, thanks for your positive input. I don't know if you're aware that I ran my young dog Jock for the first time in Novice under you at Braidwood last August. I was pleased that he performed quite creditably and helped me fly the Victorian flag while trialling interstate.

I aim to run him in Restricted at Easter and as long as my training remains on course, that will continue to be my goal. The road to AA is still ahead but barring any major mistakes along the way, I hope to achieve that goal with him some time in the future too. That will really be a first for me and the one I look forward to most !:lol:

Teresa Parkinson

[Kerry Webster]

Hi Teresa,

Good on you for having a goal in sight for your dog. I do hope that in the main, triallers go in with a goal, whether it be to finish every trial that season, to get NRD, RRD or better.

Once my older dog got her NRD I aimed at All Age, and never waned in my determination to get there. The young Lab has been a more difficult and stressful situation, but my aim is RRD for him (and with one win so far, we are a third of the way). We will probably go on to A/A, if I survive that long, or more to the point, if the dog does.

Re lining out and back. It is interesting reading two judges points of view on this subject. It appears to me that this will also be a matter of a judges opinion at a trial, some being adamant that the line out and back be direct, whilst others may be lenient in their judgement.

Personally, I took pains to train my GR to take straight lines out and back on a retrieve. It wasn't a quick and easy task, but she got the idea and is very reliable on her lines back especially where water is involved. I do agree with Joe about the obstacles in the path of the straight line out & back. Inpenetrable blackberry bushes are one barrier that I have seen necessitating a dog to veer off the line. It always baffles me as to why some judges place firing points in situations where the straight line approach is impossible because of barriers, sheer drops etc.

Regardless, I would still train a dog to take a straight line out and back, because that is what I desire her/him to do. If, in the setting of a run, an inpenetrable area is situated on that line, then I trust the dog to be smart enough and trained enough to get back on the line once past it.

Kerry

[Teresa Parkinson]

Joe, your point about the need to teach handling as a precursor to teaching good lining skills (esp. on angles) is certainly taken - the seminar last year made that emphasis quite emphatically. And I have certainly kept that in mind while training my young dog.

The lack of certain training facilities does make teaching some drills such as swim-by more difficult but I am constantly on the look-out for that perfect bit of water in our area - I will find it if it kills me! In the meantime, I am using more 'conventional' methods.

Kerry, I couldn't agree more with your assessment. I could never understand the logic behind some judges setting up Novice runs that penalised dogs taking a direct line to the bird. I watched my own dogs on occasion attempt to get through impenetrable barriers when straight-lining a bird only to have to find an alternative route and get lost in the process. Where is the reward in that? Novice dogs do not have the training or the experience to deal with such issues. And when your time is spent building up confidence in a young dog, the last thing you want is a negative experience at a trial. I would think that rewarding dogs for facing heavy cover, water etc. should be the emphasis. Just my humble opinion.

In the meantime, I am doing my best to teach Jock good lining skills in a methodical and hopefully thorough way. He remains a keen and highly positive student and is a pleasure to train. He would rather retrieve than eat (maybe even breathe ....but I'm not sure how to test that theory!) and while he lives for the game, I'll keep throwing dummies for him!

See ya and thanks for the input.

Teresap