I am game - may I start with a few suggestions?

[Julie Cramond]

I think we should try and make our runs more equal.

By:

(1) Having same coloured birds (on marks) for every competitor, even if this requires using old birds.

(2) Double rises not being allowed in restricted.

(3) Game stewards being allowed to call no birds, especially if the judge cannot see if a particular bird has landed in heavy cover.

(4) Blinds being marked with an orange ribbon, which would be invisible to the dog.

[Kirsty Blair]

Feeling brave myself. .... I'd like to see a minimum angle stated for the separation of double marks/marks and blinds in restricted. eg 60 degrees, 90 degrees, 110 degrees etc etc (whatever is agreed upon by trialling fraternity) It used to be common sense to keep the separation substantial for Restricted dogs but doesn't seem to be the case any more.

Kirsty

[Jason Ferris]

Hi Julie

I agree with three of your four points, but am not sure about double rises not being allowed in restricted. Did you have a particular rationale for this suggestion?

Cheers, Jason.

[Julie Cramond]

Hi Jason,

OK. I will try to explain why I have difficulty with double rises.

I understand the natural shooting scenario of having double rises. Andrew has tried to explain to me that he can down two birds, and on a few occasions he has only seen one bird fall, when in fact both birds have. But (but again, sorry), on the occasion that I saw this on the rice with Andrew when I was invited to go with the boys, LOL, the TWO birds were obvious to me flying together but still apart. In our trials we only see one bird in the air. So my question remains is a double rise a mark or a blind. Or it is purely a training concept. Dogs learn to take lines but many restricted dogs going back to the same area, is against everything I have been trying to teach them.

My successful retrieves at a trial with a double rise, has been taught by firing quickly two shots and not moving my body at all. Also using voice cues whatever they may be.

Even in All Age, State Championships and Nationals dogs returning to old successful marking areas if they could not find "the sent for bird".

If someone could please explain to me what/how we are testing our dogs in regards to double rises I would be a very happy woman.

[Jason Ferris]

Thanks Julie. You make some good points. I guess I had always assumed that the idea was to demonstrate that you could send a dog back to the area of an old fall if you want to, but that it knew not to go back there unless cued to do so. To me it is a test of teamwork between dog and handler.

Like you I would welcome clarification.

Cheers, Jason.

[Jason Ferris]

Julie

Just reflecting on your first suggestion

(1) Having same coloured birds (on marks) for every competitor, even if this requires using old birds.

Wouldn't this be something for the judges guide? Rule 93a already provides that "the condition of the game for that retrieve shall be substantially the same for each dog".

Or are you advocating making this rule more prominent (its buried under Game steward duties at present) and clarifying what "the same" means?

Cheers, Jason.

[Gareth Tawton]

Julie,

As much as I would like to see all birds equal we need to face some reality.All pidgeons are not created equal !!!! I would agree trial management should try and categorize birds light, med and dark for example. But we can only work with what is available and what we can afford.
Jason has hit the nail on the head. A double rise tests if we can send a dog back to an old fall if we want to. I have seen as many as 15 birds shot in the same area with the shooter having know idea how many were actually down. The dog had to be continually sent back into the reeds to hunt until we were sure all birds had benn collected. This is a relatively simple concept and would seem appropriate to be taufght to a restricted dog given how much more complex All Age is.
Game stewards are able to call no birds under the current rules. All they need is to be instructed to do so by the judge. Perhaps another item for a judges guide!!
As far as flag to mark blinds. I can't agree with this one. If everyone is shown where the blind is and given a chance to reconfirm thi if neccessary for the run starts then the run is equal for everyone. Retrieving is a team sport and your part of the teamwork is to remeber where to send your dog!! Also don't forget we are trying to emulate shooting conditions. When shootinhg the ducks don't hang a flag out where they have been shot. You have to remember.

Gareth

[Robert Tawton]

Hi Julie,

The requirements of a Double Rise Retrieve represents a very real situation that often occurs in the field of duck hunting. There is a clear need for a dog to understand the concept of, "on command", returning to an area from which it has previously retrieved game and to hunt this area for further item/s of game, which the dog has not had the opportunity to observe their fall. Mulitple birds falling into heavy reeds, a second bird being shot while the dog is returning with the first bird, multiple shooters operating with one dog are typical scenarios.

Teaching the dog to understand the concept should not be too difficult, provided one is consistent in the use of the appropriate command, such as, "same again", "other one" etc. The dog also needs to be familiar with pile work and the "seek", "find it", and/or "hunt'em up" command. Retrieving a pair of slippers in the hallway of your house is not a bad starting point! Retrieving 10 to 15 dummies from a pile is the next step in the progression. Sending dogs on the specialized "other one" command rather than "back" limits the potential for confusion. When the need to handle arises use literal hand signals and repeat the "other one" command (rather than resorting to the typical "over" and "back" commands) is, in my view, helpful in furthering the dog's understanding of the concept. Testing the dog's understanding of the "Double Rise" (and several other concepts) is also not too difficult. Set up a pair of throwers in a "v" formation such that one dummy (bird if you prefer) falls at a distance of about 60m and the other at a distance of about 100m and with a 30 degree angle of separation. As the dog's understanding grows the angle between the two marks can be reduced. Now do each mark as a single for the purpose of establishing that the dog knows exactly where the marks fall. Repeat the set as a "Double Mark" retrieve i.e. throw the long mark, then the short mark - pick up the short mark then the long mark as a memory mark. Repeat the Double Mark setup in all its various combinations short/long/reverse order pick up etc. At this point the dog's and your confidence should be growing as the dog becomes comfortable with the concept of "getting this one and not that one".
Now do a "Double Rise" off the short mark. Repeat by doing a "Double Rise" using the long mark. The final step is to have the dog retrieve three items of game viz, a "Double Rise" off the short mark and a memory bird off the long mark; a "Double Rise" off the long mark and a memory bird off the short mark; a "Double Rise" off the long mark and a "Two Bird" off the short mark and finally a "Double Rise" off the long mark and a "Double Fall" off the short mark. When a dog can complete this drill without mistakes you can truly say it understands the "Double Rise" concept and returning to old falls should not be a problem!

Furthermore, before we collectively start thinking about limiting the repertoire of retrieves in a Restricted Stake it should be remembered that the winner of a Restricted is entitled to compete in a State and/or National Championship. This prerequisite was introduced in order to maintain "the standard" and to introduce some control over the number of entries in these premier events. At the 1999 Retrieveing Trial Review WA proposed that the entry requirements for State and National Championships should be increased to include a "Place" in an All Age Stake. This proposal did not recieved the support of the meeting, nor did the alternative proposal put forward by the ACTCA viz, the prerequisite should be increased to include that the dog is no longer eligible to compete in a Restricted Stake. Your suggestion that Double Rise retrieves should be excluded from Restricted Stakes would in effect represent a lowering of the current standard and surely this is not what you had in mind!!

Kindest regards, RWT

[Kirsty Blair]

Furthermore, before we collectively start thinking about limiting the repertoire of retrieves in a Restricted Stake it should be remembered that the winner of a Restricted is entitled to compete in a State and/or National Championship. This prerequisite was introduced in order to maintain "the standard" and to introduce some control over the number of entries in these premier events.
Kindest regards, RWT

Hi Bob,

I don't think the fact that a Restricted winner is eligible for entry to Championships and Nationals is a reasonable explanation for the increasingly difficult and unreasonable restricted runs we are seeing now. If you're going to argue from that angle then the fact that one Novice win can see you eligible to compete in All Age might call for some blinds to be set for Novice dogs!

If Championships and Nationals want the quality of entries to remain high then change the eligibility rules. I don't believe the answer is to have a Novice stake and two All Age stakes - losing Restricted altogether. Again and again we have discussed the lack of retention of new triallers on this site. I reiterate the point I've always made - the difference between Novice and Restricted is too great and the divide is getting greater. Whether it be through rule changes or a judges guide I strongly believe that we need to set definite boundaries regarding the expectations of our Restricted dogs.

Kirsty

[Kerry Webster]

In reading this thread I am led to wonder about the restricted trials held over in the east. From what is said, it appears that they border on All Age level runs. Can someone please enlighten me as to what expectations are being asked of restricted competitors over there.

Obviously we all expect there to be a difference in difficulty between the three stakes, and often enough, it could be haste in putting dogs into stakes before they are well established in tasks required in those stakes, that is the culprit.

Kerry

[Robert Tawton]

Hi Kirsty,

In your response to my post on Double Rises you included comments to the effect that you have noted a trend of quote, "increasingly difficult and unreasonable Restricted runs we are now seeing." unquote. You also wrote quote ,"I reiterate the point I have always made - the difference between Novice and Restricted is too great and the divide is getting greater." unquote.

I'm affraid that I must disagree with your assessment. I acknowledge that the degree of difficulty at any level may/will vary from Judge to Judge but, in general terms, I have not noted the trend to which you refer. More to the point, it is widely accepted that the jump from Restricted to All Age is where the greatest difference exists and this has, in part, been addressed, in NSW and the ACT, by Clubs running Restricted Sweepstakes in an effort to give competitors in Restricted more experience and to better equip them to make the transition to All Age. Is it possible that the gulf between All Age and Restricted Stakes is a product of Restricted Stakes being too easy? Currently NSW and the ACT are experiencing a dearth of competitors at Restricted level and small fields inevitably lead to pressure on Judges to award trophies when the quality of the work may not have reached the desired standard. In my view, this situation has been a contributing factor to the increasing divide between Restricted and All Age.

Kindest regards, RWT

PS I have not been a regular competitor at Restricted level for some years, but recently I ran my new pup "Tank" in his first Restricted and it will be interesting to see if my view changes over the next few months.

[Graeme Parkinson]

I think marking blinds in some way is a good idea. It is then the same for everyone. There may be 1 1/2 hrs (more in some big fields) between being shown the run and when you get to pegs with your dog.
I have seen a blind marked in an all age with a plastic bag in Victoria (can't think of who the judge was) but I thought it worked very well. It doesn't have to be an orange ribbon (I do believe dogs can see orange by the way, not at great distances but when they get close enough they can see enough to help) a fallen tree branch would do adequately.

I don't think testing a handlers memory should be part of the overall test (how many points would you allocate for it ).

Graeme P

[Glenice McClure]

I have been following the comments regarding the above topics over the past weeks, some with considerable interest , some with not so much interest.
Just wish to thank Bob and Gareth for at last some sanity with their comments.
I have very grave concerns for our sport if some of the suggestions get "up and running".
It appears to me that so many of triallers these days are not prepared to do the "hard yards" to get to the top and are quite content for it to be a "picnic in the park - having some fun with their mate".
I have trained five dogs to their R.T.Championship (four of which were Dual Ch's) and I know just how much work I had to do both in the park and on trial grounds just to be able to compete with the "big boys" and boy when I could consistently show up and beat them, it made the victory all that much sweeter.
From the day I start training a young dog, I am playing around with multiple retrieves so it never has been a problem moving up to Restricted class.
We have a young dog currently in Western Australia who is fortunate enough to have a very dedicated handler who has moved him very successfully from Novice to Restricted and at the end of the year I saw him compete in an All AGe Stake and believe me , was very impressive.
I trust sanity will prevail.
Glenice McClure.

[Prue Winkfield]

Glenys - slightly off topic, but please can you tell me what "hunt Test Titled" means in WA?

On the subject of Restricted - having GSPs, this is my favorite stake as I belive it is the natural peak for utility dogs. One of our judges here (think it was Mark Davis) said they enjoyed judging it because you could do whatever you liked in it. With this, I would agree - it is a great stake to introduce all the concepts you get in AA without the distance and 'tightness'. I have not trialed in WA but have in Queensland and some time ago in SA and Tasmania. From my experience, the standard in the South Eastern States is generally higher and most of the people who are identifying issues with the sport, come from the Eastern States - this must say something! Personally, I think our Restricted stakes are fine although there can be issues with marks not really being marks!

Still think the biggest issues are with novice which is fast becoming a stake for AA handlers with young dogs!

[Jason Ferris]

Just wish to thank Bob and Gareth for at last some sanity with their comments.
I have very grave concerns for our sport if some of the suggestions get "up and running".
It appears to me that so many of triallers these days are not prepared to do the "hard yards" to get to the top and are quite content for it to be a "picnic in the park - having some fun with their mate".

If I understand you correctly Glenice, you are concerned about the suggested alterations to novice and restricted stakes. I believe that these suggestions have been made with the interests of the sport at heart and are motivated by a desire to provide for recruitment and retention of new handlers to the sport. I have not perceived any desire to lower the standard that we are striving for, but to provide a more gradual progression up the stakes to the all age/championship level.

it is widely accepted that the jump from Restricted to All Age is where the greatest difference exists

the difference between Novice and Restricted is too great and the divide is getting greater

Obviously there is some disagreement about the gaps between novice to restricted and restricted to all age. To me the critical issue is which is more likely to result in a handler abandoning the sport. In the past couple of years we have seen at least one handler in NSW/ACT get their NRD and then bomb out of Restricted and leave the sport. While I have not yet got a dog to the Restricted - All Age point myself, I would have thought that by the time you have have invested the time and effort to get a dog trained to that level you would be more likely to stick with it and continue to train for AA.

Cheers, Jason.