I am game - may I start with a few suggestions?

[Prue Winkfield]

Kirsty - Club trophys and Retrieving Dog of the Year is my guess! If you are into breeding at all having a dog that wins top dog of the year in any discipline carries quite a lot of weight. Personally, once placed in Restricted I don't go in Novice anymore (really because I don't like novice) and I promised a friend I would enter AA on the days when there is no restricted once she had won her first restricted - which she now has - we shall see about that one as even though I am a masochist running GSPs, there are limits to self flaggelation! Prue

[Laraine Frawley]

Due to lack of time I read the posts but don't have time to reply however feel I can contribute to the current discussions. I run my dogs in obedience, agility and retrieving trials and retrieving is the only dog discipline where to achieve a title you have to win. Looking at the posts it seems the majority of people have no problem with competitors remaining in a level for an extended period (forever) if they wish or the dog is not capable of achieving at the next level. The problem lies with the requirement to win to progress and competitors staying at a level (and restricted seems to be the main one) stopping the competitor who wants to get the wins and progress.

This point has been raised before but if we changed from the win to get to the next level system to the qualifiy to progress, the problem could be solved. In obedience you have to get at least 175 points out of 200 to qualify (that's 87.5%) which if you were doing an exam would probably consider that a fairly good result. You also have to pass every exercise so you can't do well in one or two exercises and then bomb one and still qualify. In obedience once you have your three qualifications in Novice you have to go to Open. In Open you are competing against dogs who can have their UD title but you can still qualify and gain those pieces of blue card towards your CDX title. Once you have the CDX you can go onto UD or stay in Open forever - your choice but you are not preventing other dogs getting their title if they reach the qualifying standard of 175 points. In UD again three qualifying passes are required and for those who wish to reach the ultimate in obedience there is the Obedience Champion title. Here we get into needing 5 scores over 185 (92.5%) and three of these have to be wins.

Agility is much the same with all dogs competing against the time and a clear course so all dogs who come in under the time set by the judge for the course and do the course with no faults qualify. Again 3 qualifications for Novice and then you have to go to Open. In Open you need 5 qualifying scores and Masters 7. In open you can be competing against dogs who have their masters title but still gain your title.

This system could be transferred to the retrieving scene with the current RT Ch title becoming the AAD or similar title and the RT Ch title being additional wins. If dogs have to get at least half marks on each run this is possibly raising the standard as I am sure at some trials the winning dog is the last one left standing and has not done enough work on a run to get half marks.

On the point about Restricted runs becoming harder, I have only 2 dogs to compare but thinking back to some of the restricted I did with Sian would say that it is about the same. Over the course of a years trials it seems we get a range of standards. With some judges we have the straight testing of concepts (double mark, double rise, mark & blind etc) and with others some difficulty is included like picking up the blind before the mark, a blind with a remote water entry etc. I personally like this approach as the dogs are being tested in a variety of terrains on the basics but we also get to see whether our dogs are taking those basics and doing them when some more difficulty is introduced.

Sorry to ramble on so long

Laraine

[Prue Winkfield]

Laraine -good to hear your views which are also held by quite a lot of people - espcially those who do not own Labs! However, if you look at most sports - they are competitons and winner takes all - golf, cricket, football, tennis, etc. Our sport is a competition and always has been. I had discussion with a friend who worked as a Senior Lecturer as to why obedience and the more recent activites are criterion based. We thought it might be because they were developed long after Retrieving trials were introduced - the same applies to our Field trials. It was only in the late 60s that criterion based assessment became generally accepted and is now the norm in education. If there were more of us we could follow the Americns and have two activities - one criterion based and one winner takes all. Unfortunately that is not the case and our numbers are decreasing. It would be interesting to know why Obedience is criterion based - does anyone know the history? Prue

[Gareth Tawton]

Laraine,

I think having a standards based trial in obediance is great. All tests are exactly the same no matter where you compete. It is easy for the judge to make an assessment in these very controlled conditions.

One of the great things about retrieving is the complexity of our trials. Many would say that retrieving and sheep dog trials are the hardest form of trialling you can undertake. There are just so many variables. These same variables then make having a standards based assessment scheme almost impossible to undertake. Not only do we need to know the dog worked to standard but also the trial was set to standard. Each trial and run by very nature will be different from the previous one. We can not compare a trial from today to one on the same ground last week or last year much less one in a different state.

Some terrain only permits relatively easy trials while others allow much more difficult trials. Weather conditions, water availability, cover etc etc all constantly change. It is much easier to set a test that you as the judge is within an acceptable standard range and then adjudicate on who was the best, 2nd 3rd etc. Our judges have enough on their plate without being laboured with the extra burden of questions on the standard of the trial and if dog x reached an acceptable level irrelevant of his placing.

Unlike Pru I don't believe breed of dogs comes into the issue at all. I have handled breeds other than labs and still don't seee how the breed comes into the issue. The best dog on the day is the best dog its as simple as that.

Gareth

[Prue Winkfield]

Gareth - you misunderstood me - I was talking about the owners of the breed, not the standard of the dogs! I totally agree the best dog on the day is the best dog regardless of breed (and I got 151.5 in Restricted recently to prove it). However, there are a lot of people with minor breeds who would like to see a pass system in place.
Prue

[Kerry Webster]

Having been in quiet mode for a little while, and reading the progress of this topic, I feel it is time for my input into the subject.

First, I do not think there is one person on this site who should be accused of not putting in the "hard yards". All of us competing are fully aware of the dedication and perseverance required to train a dog for retrieving, especially to All Age level, and just because one particular dog is successful doesn't mean that owner has worked any harder at training their dog than the rest of the people competing. Some dogs are quicker at learning than others, some are stubborn, some have hormones on their mind, and some, well...will never make the grade regardless of the work put into them.

Then there is the luck factor,and, it does exist in trialing. There is also unfortunately, the favouritism factor, and this also exists in trialing. (Ever seen a judge suddenly, and conveniently, go blind to a particular dogs misdemeanours ??).

It seems from all accounts, that the majority of handlers keep on training and trying with their dog/s taking the bad with the good, and not giving up on their dog or themselves. It takes a hell of a lot more guts and determination to persevere with a dog that may be a little behind the 8 ball, than to just toss it out of the kennel.

In regard to Non competing dogs, I think this is the ideal way to keep people and dogs in the sport. Why can't we have for example, in Restricted, the untitled dogs competing, then the N/C dogs. The same entry fee, but no award except a small token (eg. 1.5kg dog biscuits). Exactly the same runs with the N/C dogs running after the Restricted dogs, and all RRD titled dogs being eligible to run until they gain a place in All Age, with the same requirements for Novice, until a place is gained in Restricted.

There will still be those handlers that progress straight on to the next level to compete, regardless, but this will allow for the handler who may need more experience to stay at the lower level until they feel comfortable in trying the next. As stated earlier, some people will stay there forever. So What ! We will still be keeping them in the sport, and maybe their next pup will progress further.

I can't see a problem with the obligatory 4 dogs, 4 handlers rule either. If this isn't achieved then the stake becomes a Non Competitive stake with no points, no titles.
My belief is that no points should be awarded toward club trophies to Non Competitive events.

Prue, FYI, over here to be eligible for Top Retrieving Dog of the Year, a dog must have won an All Age trial. A dozen seconds and thirds would not get you the title.

I don't believe that the method used in obedience of gaining a qualifying mark, could be utilized in Retrieving, as Gareth said. Too many variables in retrieving make this impossible to implement. With obedience having a set of tasks to complete within a set boundary, which is well known to the handler and usually the dog, makes the comparison to retrieving, a mile apart.

That is all for now, I have fizzled out.

Kerry