Andre's extradionary trial misadventure

[Peter Betteridge]

As I was surfing some US retriever sites yesterday I became aware of an unusual trialling decision that has US boards buzzing .One of our American members ,Andre entered a british rules field trial held in Alabama.it seems to have been fostered by well known trainer and author Robert Milner.Andre has been very generous in giving us his most through appraisal of FF and all its ramifications.He has agreed to give us a blow by blow of this unique trial and all the controversy that surounded it. I for one amlooking forward to what he has to say
regards peter betteridge

[Andre Fendlason]

Hi all

Peter Betteridge contacted me via private message on this forum and has asked if I would mind giving a description of the recent Wildrose UK Style Trial held here in the US.

Here it is...

The Wildrose event is called: 4th Annual Wildrose British Retriever Championship.

It is held each year on the grounds of Wildrose Kennels which is owned by Mike Stewart and was previously owned by gundog author Robert Milner. This is close to Alabama but not quite. Location is Northern Mississippi.

This years event was judged by Mike Stewart, Robert Milner and Vic Barlow of Wildrose UK.

The event typically draws folks who own British bloodline Labrador retrievers. Some are wildrose bloodlines but others do participate. The event has grown to include US bloodlines and was starting to see participation by US folks involved in other US retriever events. Mostly hunt test dogs.

The event is very unique in the sense that it is the only UK style event held in the US each year. That unique atmosphere has for some time been the single issue in the event not getting the top US working retrievers participating.

There is a great deal of contempt by many US trainers for the level of work required to perform well in this UK style event and after participating three times I would say they are correct in some ways but way off base in others.

I have come to respect the less than polished look of the typical UK style trained retrievers participating in this event. I say less than polished but I mean that only in the sense that this is what they look like to a US trainer who is an advanced level US trainer. That image comes from the much less precise handling habits of the UK dogs there. They handle but only generally and they rely much more on the dogs ability to self hunt once handled to an area.

A typical US blind retrieve test sees the handler directing the dog to a precise location under complete directional control by the handler. The UK stuff seems to be more of ... get the dog to an area and let it hunt. So much so that the location of a particular blind may not be precisely known to the handler. A simple "over there in those woods" might be the only direction given the handler when the blind is to be run.

An example of this was found in the first series of this years event. It was also the series that was supposed to contain some US style concepts... and it did.

First series was a poison bird blind of about 90 yards. The scene was on a hillside over looking a small lake. Handler and dog were located about 15 yards up the bank. There was an honor dog sitting there as well.

The series was started with a poison bird launched to the left about 30 yards down the bank to the left. Once this was down the working dog was asked to make a square water entry and cross a corner of the pond to the right. A good line meant 25 yards of water and then exit for 50 yards to the planted blind located in a small section of pine woods. Dog remains in sight the entire series.

The US hunt test style dog does this as routine. Probably a great many taking the line all the way to the bird and not requiring any handling. At worst they would be a whistle or two putting the dog squarely on the bird.

The UK style work seen there was less than pretty to the US handler. Typically the first thing that happened was that they could not prevent the dogs from picking up the poison bird. That held true even with the poison bird being way off line. The better UK style dogs did take a line in the general direction but seldom precisely on line. On exit from the water they began hunting the woods and would eventually come up with the bird on their own. Also not pretty to the US trainer but efficient nonetheless.

The successful dogs encountered a diversion in the water on the return. Few diversions were encountered...

Of the 21 dogs starting this series I am thinking more than half could not pick up the planted bird and half of the failures were dogs which could not handle off the poison bird. The dog which eventually won the trial had nice initial line but finished poorly with at bare minimum twenty-five whistles. My Rusty probably had the best work on this series being put cleanly on the bird. No issue with the poison bird or diversion.

Will continue on to the second series description later.

André

Did I mention we had a standard poodle competing?

[Joe Law]

Andre, I find your report on the Wildrose UK Style Trial held in the US most interesting. Here, downunder, it is probably true that our trials more closely resemble the American Hunt tests than any other type of trial. If I understand our history correctly, our rules were originally borrowed (with some adjustments) from American rules. During the evolution of the sport here "UK style" thinking and values have had a considerable influence on the way we test and evaluate our dog work. However, in more recent times, American values and training methods have been adopted with considerable success by more than a few of our more serious triallers. Hence, both your report and personal comments on the Wildrose experience are relevant to the debates that are taking place here as we undergo a rule review and grapple with our future direction. I am looking forward with considerable interest to your description and comments on the second series. Don't forget to inform us on the fate of the standard poodle! Joe

[Andre Fendlason]

Since you asked... The standard poodle did not complete the first series having experienced the pitfalls of the poison bird if I remember correctly. It should also be said that the dog did seem to have potential and I am guessing they will get things on track some time down the road.

I have had occasion to judge several standard poodles in HRC sanctioned hunts and I did see some nice work but ... for the most part the breed is still in the process of recovering it's long lost hunting ability. Progress is occurring and I am looking forward to their return.

WILDROSE SECOND SERIES

This series was a free pass for everyone. It was simply done to give the folks participating instruction on how the walk up series were to be conducted and no dogs were dropped in spite of difficulties. The handlers were told this would be a free round prior to running it.

Scenario was 4 dogs working at once. The line was formed with judges between each of the dogs and the total length of the line from end dog to end dog was about 35 yards.

The location was in a hilly but open field. Low cover throughout.

The test was begun with the judge calling out "walk on." At that the line proceeded at a slow pace for about 6 to 8 yards max. At this point a bird was launched toward on end of the line and landing about centered in front of the line of dogs and handlers. The retrieve was something like 25 yards. Judge would ask a dog to pick up the mark and after completion the dog would rotate to the outside position of the line. After all four had picked up a mark new dogs were called up.

The difficulty level involved was particularly low in this series. From the viewpoint of an American hunt test trainer the mark was below even started level.

It must be said that difficulty was not the point of this series. Teaching the handlers the ropes was more the point.

WILDROSE THIRD SERIES

After teaching the handlers their roles in the second their new skills were called upon in the third series but with a new twist added.

Again it was a four dog format but the location was in relatively dense woods. Depending on when you were called to the line the cover varied from difficult to easy but all dog were to pick up a mark in the woods.

On the judges cue the line walked on for a very short distance at which point another mark was launched similar to the prior series. Very short and nearly impossible for a dog to miss mark.

My dog missed the mark... As stated earlier it depended on when you were called as to the cover you experienced. My situation was not heavy cove but rather we were in the process of skirting around a large Oak tree when our bird was launched. Dog could not see the bird even if looking directly in the prober direction. I simply lined up as I would do a blind and picked the bird with a check whistle to finish.

In each of the UK style events I have participated in I seldom had the benefit of my dog actually getting to see a mark. It just worked out that way due to the varied conditions each dog saw. The thing about it is that you will be expected to pick the bird up regardless and this is one of the areas which plays to a more free hunt style. Specifically the UK style works well in this situation but I would also say a solid US style dog is not at a disadvantage.

In the third... Remarkably there were a number of dog which had difficulty in the woods. The dog which later won the trial also handled on this series.

Again ... from the perspective of an advanced level US hunt test trainer this was easy pickings being somewhat simular to a mid level walk up mark. The test really only checked for steady if you ask me.

Up untill this point in the trial I would rate the difficulty as quite easy.

Will post the fourth series later and do know that it was in the 4 series which marked the beginning of a move toward more difficulty but only slightly.

André

[Maureen Cooper]

Very interesting to read the comments on the Wildrose trial and having been to a UK field trial,albeit only a Novice, and watched (too many) UK Championship vidoes, Andre's comments were good.

When birds are downed in a trial, the precise location of the blind bird might be fairly vague and a general area only indicated and sometimes the bird might have been a runner too so the dog is sent to the location told by the judges and the dog has to work it out for itself from there. These means the dogs have great self hunt built in and less reliance on the handler.

In walk-ups I have seen, there is a general walk-up scenario where ALL dogs left in competition are walked up in a line and dogs must not forge ahead of the handler at any time and if it does, the handler is not allowed to command the dog to heel. Any dog seen forging ahead is eliminated!

In the other scenario, the normal way a trial is conducted, the two nominated competing dogs are at either end of the line and some dogs yet to run are also within sight of shot game in the line.When game is shot the retrieve might be only 25 metres from one dog but the judges will select the dog from the opposite end of the line so it has to run diagonally across the line for a much longer retrieve. This does not appear to have been the case in the Wildrose trial.

Re dogs picking up poison game, in the UK trial I watched when numerous pheasants were downed, if a dog collected a nearer downed bird, it returned with the game and was resent for the longer nominated game without penalty.

I did also see birds downed in a wood and dogs being sent to hunt them out with almost no idea of the precise location of the game. These two latter scenarios show how easy it is for dogs to collect ANY game en route.

Jack Lynch has probably been to a few more UK field trials than me and might be able to give more details. One of the end of Championship tests I enjoy watching is where the few competing dogs are gathered together in very close proximity, off lead, and the beaters put up several birds which are shot surrounding the dogs and handlers, some can fall almost at the feet of the dogs! The dogs may turn round or stand to mark the downed birds but must make any forward attempt to retrieve game, however close. The judges then select game for each dog to retrieve( the very close ones usually get picked up by personnel prior to this) and the game is anything shot, pheasant, partridge or snipe. I have seen a dog go out on this last run of a Championship when it would not pick up a snipe.

The comments made on this site re our trials "going the American way" is possibly due to more emphasis being placed on line running and whistle orientated dogs and removing the ability of the dog to think for itself. However as a buyer of the UK Shooting Gazette for many years and watching Championship videos, I do notice and read that the UK dogs are now much more whistle obedient and take directions much better than they did when I first watched but due to the unplanned shooting environment, freedom of the dog to work things out for himself is still in situ. When I was talking about our trials to a UK trainer/ competitor he was very critical of line running dogs and pointing out a line to me to a fence with various shrubs and trees etc en route he said he would want his trialling dogs to briefly check those places out for bird/ rabbit scent and not just run blindly on until he blew the stop whistle!!! Food for thought?

TTFN
Maureen

[Andre Fendlason]

WILDROSE FOURTH SERIES

The fourth series was again done as a walk up series with 4 dogs in the line. The location was in an overgrown field enclosed by small woods on 3 side. Field was roughly 100 yards wide by perhaps 250 yards long. The line would proceed on a slight uphill grand. Cover was deep in most areas with the exceptions being some cut strips.

The work was to be a poison bird blind.

On the judges cue (walk on) the line proceeded for a short distance at which point a single marked retrieve was thrown in view of all. One down the judge asked the working dog to turn 180º and pick up a planted blind of about 40 yards. Upon completion the dog did not have to pick up the mark thrown earlier.

More difficult would be generous in describing this series. The advantage in this series was clearly to the US style dogs as the exact location of the planted blind was marked with a small orange ribbon tied to the tall grass.

My dog was entirely successful and I can say it would have been an embarrassment to do less. Initial line put the dog on the bird with a check whistle in the immediate area.

Interestingly some of the UK style dog encountered difficulty even with their hunt it up method of fetching blinds. In the 4 dog line I was in two dog could not pick up the bird. Rusty was the first dog then two dogs failed then the fourth was successful. The dog which later won the trial had difficulty completing this retrieve.

WILDROSE FIFTH SERIES

This is the first series which could be called difficult. I was totally amazed at the major increase in difficulty and can say for certain that this blind would have been a challenge in any retriever competition. US field trial, hunt test anywhere... I would label it as just plain nasty.

It was again a poison bird blind but with only one dog called at a time.

Scene was in an overgrown field towards the top as the view was considerable down hill toward the planted blind. Exact location of the blind was not designated but the area was relatively small.

The view was looking down into a corner of the field. In the corner there was a small gap in the trees which opened up into an adjoining field. In that gap there was a rather deep creek bottom. More of a gully really as its depth was considerable. The field leading to the corner where the blind was planted was shaped more or less like a funnel or v.

Distance to the blind was about 120-130 yards. Not exactly long but tough nonetheless.

At this point in the trial there were 9 dogs remaining in contention and the judge would call them up individually for this series.

Arriving at the line the judge explained the test and then it began.

First thing to happen was the poison bird. It was launched to the left of the line to the blind and landed in heavy cover out about 30 yards and perhaps 15 yards off the line to the blind. The poison bird was clearly something the US style dogs were far better at dealing with.

After marking the poison bird the handler was asked to pick up the planted blind.

The handler would send the dog and the cover was such that the dog was going to be very difficult to handle after about 30 yards. All hope of handling ceased for about 70 yards. After that there was a small area of lower cover a bit off line to the left that it was possible to handle. It required either intentionally sending the dog on a bad line or the dog simply ending up there on it's own to use that area.

The true line to the blind was such that the dog must drive all the way across the gully before being able to handle and even then the handler must have anticipated when the dog would pop up out of the gully since anything less than an immediate whistle meant the dog would be sitting in deep cover again and would be unable to take a cast.

My Rusty was the only dog to take the proper line and cross the ditch without assistance. Unfortunately for me I was not ready for the needed quick whistle. I was late and the dog sat in the deep cover. This required me to whistle him back toward me a small bit where I could cast him. Again I stopped him where I could not see him. Another toot and I was than able to handle. That cast put him on the bird cleanly.

There were only three dogs which were able to pick up this blind. My Rusty having 4 whistles and the next best performance being somewhere around 25 whistles. The dog which later won the trial struggled in a major kind of way. All dogs except Rusty required multiple handles to even reach the ditch. Rusty's initial line had him within 30 feet of the bird. Yes, I was a very happy competitor after this series as we should have been far and away leading the trial.

With only three dog being able to complete the series... 6 were called back.

This particular test was very obviously the domain of the lining dog. The looser hunting UK dogs suffered mightily by not pushing deep and beginning to hunt way before they made the area they needed to be in to hunt it up.

The test was the first and was to be the only series to present a serious challenge for an advance level dog. There was one dog which would have carried in this series if it was judge to the standards of a US hunt test. Rusty

At this point in the trial I am wondering what is going on. Never have heard of any retriever event where a dog would be called back to the next series when he could not pick up a bird in an earlier series. The judges had actually asked three of these handlers to pick their dog up after being unsuccessful in an extended effort.

Stay tuned for the 6th. It was to be a really unique and fun series even though the difficulty took a big step back down.

[Andre Fendlason]

WILDROSE SIXTH SERIES

The sixth series was unique and quite frankly ... it was fun.

The test was to be a single marked retrieve and a relatively short blind. Two dogs and their handlers would be working at once in this series and they would be firing live rounds.

Location was in another small field located within wooded surroundings. Shape of the field was rectangular. About 80 yards by 150 or so. The cover in the field itself was almost non existent. Very low grass.

Test was begun when the judged called up the first two dog. Both walked to what was roughly the center of the field. The were side by side with about 6-8 yards between them. Upon reaching the center of the field each handler was approached by a gun bearer who delivered a 12ga loaded with three rounds. An additional three rounds was given to each handler and stored in a pocket.

When ready the two dogs and handlers began walking down the field as if they were entering a hunting area. When they reached a non specified point in the field clay pigeon were launched from over the handler right and left shoulder. The machines being located on the edge of the woods line.

The handlers were to attempt to shoot as many as they could hit until their gun was empty. When empty both handlers reloaded and continued on. The same sequence was then repeated and when done there wear a total of twelve rounds fired.

As the last shot of those twelve rounds was fired a bird was launched from within the woods to the right and it went down range never exiting the woods. This bird ended up landing about 15 yards inside the woods. It was not to be picked up just yet.

Handler and dog would then be asked to turn and run a blind retrieve in the exact opposite direction.

The blind was planted diagonally across the field and directly behind a large oak tree. Behind the oak and blind bird was a fence line. Somewhat grown up but it could be seen through to the next field over. Distance to the blind was somewhere around 40 yards and it required the dog to run past one of the clay throwers.

Numerous dogs had trouble on the blind and I really am not sure why. My Rusty was handled directly to the bird and retrieved it in uneventful fashion. The dog which later won had much the same quality of work.

After picking the blind the handler then turned and had their dog pick up the earlier mark. Almost every dog handled on this mark with the exception being Rusty. He front footed it. The winning dog had to handle on this mark.

This test was great fun but for most it was the end of the line. That includes the dog which later won.

I would say that the US style dog had the edge here as well.

There was also an advantage in being a good shot as the hard hit clays would be basicaly vaporized.

Poor hits meant that your dog sat and watched numerous clays go down in locations other than the location of the actual mark. I never have seen a dog which could mark twelve birds.

Only two dogs were called back for the seventh and final series.

Stay tuned...

André

[Andre Fendlason]

WILDROSE SEVENTH SERIES

This series was to be the last in the trial and it was to be over quickly as only two dogs were called to run it.

This was to be a single marked retrieve ... almost. The birds was actually never in any visible position when I ran Rusty.

The supposed mark was about 100 yards. The scene was the same field the 5th series was run in except that now we were running up hill in the heavy cover. Looking in the direction of the mark the handler saw about 45-50 yards of overgrown field then a small section of woods directly behind that. The mark was to be in those woods. There was zero visibility into the woods.

The judge called the dogs up one at a time. While the judge pointed in the general direction of where the mark was to be thrown a shot rang out. I don't know if this was planned or not but we never even had a chance of seeing the bird.

I sent Rusty as if it was a blind retrieve. A very good initial line saw him enter the woods in the exact spot one would hope for if you were relying on the judges instruction as to the location of the bird. Rusty made very short work of it returning promptly with the bird. As he exited the heavy with the bird on his way in the judge called out "Trial Over."

The other dog called to the final series had struggled in a major kind of way. 20 to 25 whistles being somewhere close to the correct count.

The winner of the trial was a dog that was dropped after handling in the sixth series and the dogs making the final round were awarded 2nd & 3rd.

Here is a dog on dog comparison,

Series 1
Rusty clean
Winning dog had a major struggle with something like 25 whistles.

Series 2
Not Scored

Series 3
Rusty - Handled Smartly
Winner-Handled Smartly

Series 4
Rusty clean
Winner struggled having several extra whistles.

Series 5
Rusty - 4 whistles and only dog to take the line.
Winner again struggled in a major kind of way. MANY whistles needed to even get the dog in the area of the blind.

Series 6

Rusty - Was the only dog absolutely clean on the series.
Winner had to handle to the mark.

Series 7

Rusty simply crushed this series.
Winner was no longer in contention and did not run this series.

At the awards meeting following the trial the first judge began with. "Just picking up the birds goes not mean you will win the trial" he suggested that style was also important and then he announced that the winner had been picked after the fifth series. He said the final series were to determine 2nd and 3rd.

The first dog called out was the winner and he was a dog which went out after handling in the sixth. Do note that the story has changed now with the judges saying that the winner was chosen after the 6th.

After experiencing what was nothing short of a complete fraud I do have a suggestion for your rules thread.

RULE#1 No dog shall be awarded a win or placement in any trial unless that dog has actually completed each and every series of the trial and retrieved each and every bird presented to the dog for retrieval.

André

[Brian McMillan]

Andre;

I enjoyed reading about your 'misadventuress'. Has 'Retriever Journal' printed an account of it yet? I wonder what version they reported. I felt that I got the short end of the stick on a judges decision at a hunt test last summer; whenever I think of it my blood still boils. But that was nothing compared to what you went through. My heart goes out to you. By the way, do you think our team that is going to England might be in for more of the same?

Brian

[Peter Betteridge]

Andre
thankyou for shareing your incredible misadventure with us.It has given us australians a bit of an insight into how the poms run trials.Like Brian ,my heart goes out to you in what can only be described as an extradionary judging decision.How have american boards reacted to this controversy and has Milner,Stewart and co been online to defend their decision?
I can assure you nothing like this has ,or will ever occur in Australia.99 % of our judges are scroupously fair and although we have to cop plenty of tough decisions our standards of ethics and sportsmanship is very high.Different judges see things differently and although we dont wont to be judged by a robot ,we are endeavouring to standardize some of our intrepretations.Bob,Alan and Gareth are instrumental in the process.I see this as a great plus for our sport
We dont have call backs.The judge calls you in if he feels that the dog is not working to a satisfactory standard.Once your called in thats it
once again thankyou for giving us your insights
regards peter betteridge

[Brian McMillan]

I just got through reading the 'Wildrose Trial' thread on the US board. With the promoters of the trial being in the business of selling their brand of dog (British Labs), making the rules, and being the judges, the event was/is ripe for fraud. Andre was trusting in man's inate goodness just to participate in it. What happened to him was one the most injust things I've seen in sport since the the officials all but gave the Russians the gold medal in basketball in the 72 Olympics. (for those who remember) As did Andre, that team did not go forward to accept it's silver medal and thereby puttting it's stamp of approval on a fraudulant event.

Brian

[Andre Fendlason]

Brian

The event was very recent and I doubt seriously that Vic Barlow will make a complete report in the Retriever Journal as to do so would probably be a career ending effort.

It should be said that I did not take issue with my dog not getting the win. Judging is always the complete property of the judges involved and their decisions are not contestable. Judges decisions are final.

My problem was with awarding the win to a non finisher and a dog which did not pick up every bird in every series and even though It was clear that my Rusty dominated the final series... I would not have had a thing to say if the other dog finishing the final series had been awarded the win.

What took place was so far off base that I fail to see how anyone could think it possible for this to pass without controversy.

It must also be said the folks in the UK had zero involvement in this event and to associate this fraud with them is something that should not be done. I have no reason to believe that they either supported or had any input into the result at wildrose.

Peter

There was some very brief attempts by wildrose folks to defend their position and they did so by attempting to pick apart my dogs performance. Well, my dog's performance was not at issue but if it were ... we clearly had the top performance of the day.

The wildrose event was not sanctioned by any US organization and was thus not subject to any penalty or sanction for the fraud. I would have taken this through official channels but that was not an option.

There needs to be some degree of honor involved if our dog games are to mean anything and I for one don't wish to be involved with anyone or anything that takes away from that. I also cannot afford to be associated with it as I am a licensed finished level judge in HRC. Anything less than calling out this fraud would have been condoning it.

André

[Peter Betteridge]

Brian
can you tell us where the wildrose thread is on a US board.Like you I applaud Andre for speaking out against fraudulant judging.Your analogy of the basketball in the olympics probably wouldn't be remembered by australians.basketball is a fairly insignificant sport in Australia, we are into cricket,rugby, tennis and golf.Our rugby world cup last year had a world wide audience of 300 million viewers.that is 6 times bigger than the superbowl.
it must be dissapointing for Andre to miss the US team to go to Ireland.Maybe one day we will have a USA verses Australia competition since our rules are not unlike your hunt tests.We have had high profile American trainers Jim Swan and Bill and Becky Eckert over to conduct clinics.Australians are very impressed with their professionalism
good luck with boscoe and happy training
peter betteridge

[Brian McMillan]

Hi Peter;

The web address of the US site is http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/ Click on Search, type in the name Wildrose. A number of threads to choose from will appear; to the best of my memory, the one that had so much interest was called ;The Wildrose Thread is back...and locked.

I didn't think many Australians would remember or even care about what happened to the US team in the 72 Olympics, but I wrote the analogy anyway. I was introduced to the sport of Rugby when I was a senior in high school. We learned about it and played it as a part of a physical education class. I must say, it was one of the most fun sprorts to play I have ever particpated in. I watch some Rugby matches on TV every now and then, but don't understand why the US team gets pushed around so much.


Brian

[Julian Bielewicz]

[quote="Brian McMillan"
I didn't think many Australians would remember or even care about what happened to the US team in the 72 Olympics.]

Actually Brian, I think you'll find that the USA still remain the 'official' Olympic Rugby Union champions as the United States took out the gold medal in the final two appearances of the sport in the Olympics, in 1920 and 1924.

Should you care to discuss some of the finer points of rugby union (including reasons why the Eagles get shoved around so much), as well as perhaps chat about retriever training with a Pom living Down under, you might like to drop me a private email.

Julian