A question for you judges

[Diane McCann]

For those of you that do not know me, I trial a GSP dog in restricted who has his own way of doing some things. One of his less than desirable trial behaviours (sometimes) is to refuse to present in front when he returns with the bird. He will either sit at heel, or sit in front of me but with his back to me facing out for the next bird. Obviously he does this as he is more concerned about the next bird to be thrown or retrieved rather than handing over this one to me, a bit of dominance is likely to be involved too. He will give the bird Ok when asked but from his position.

My question is how would you judge this in regard to scoring? My insistence that he sits in front and presents properly generally just results in minor shuffling on his part and lots of ignored commands on my part and I wonder if I am better of just letting him do it and not making a fuss.

In answer to your unasked question, no of course he does not try it in training! I am of course open to any suggestions on methods to permanently eradicate this nonsense.

Diane McCann

[Gareth Tawton]

Dianne,

Most dogs given a choice would prefer to deliver to the side, at heel. The ACT in its rule change requests have included a side delivery as acceptable. At the moment given the rules currently require a front delivery I would be penalized you in comparison to the dog that delivers in front. That penalty may only be minimal say a point or two but there still must be some form of penalty. You need to decide if your dog gives you the bird cleanly from the side will he loose less points than several disobeyed commands trying to get a front on delivery. Sometimes its better to cut your losses.

Here's hoping for a rule change and your problem will go away.

Gareth

[Kirsty Blair]

Hi Di,

Great to meet you on Saturday, by the way!

Ditto on the deliveries from the heel position - I also have my fingers crossed that the rule review will bring about a change. I personally believe that a delivery from heel position looks neat and tidy and sets the dog up immediately for the next retrieve.

Any news on when the national forum will take place?

Kirsty

[Diane McCann]

Thanks Gareth, I believe I will still work on it in training but not fuss if he does it at trials.

Hi Kirsty, it was nice to meet you too. Hope your trip to Tassie was uneventful.

I believe that the ACT proposed rule change re delivery is very sensible indeed, and I am not all biased. Let's hope it gets through.

[Glenice McClure]

Hello Dianne - first of all I object to being called "you judges".
Secondly, why do you think that a rule change requiring dogs not to have to deliver to hand in front of the handler is sensible.?
Is it because you and a minority of handlers find it too difficult, so lets change the rule? If that is the case , lets change the whole rule book to fit in with what we are able to train our dogs to do or not to do.??
From what I have been reading in the posts over the past few months, I have decided from this day forth never again to go into this site. The negatives far outway the positives.

Glenice McClure.

[Peter Doley]

Hi Dianne,

I think there is nothing better than a dog who is in front, sits(standing is Ok)steady and PRESENTS the game to the handler. As you said with a side deliver the dog is more focused on the next retriever and with that presentation is gone. From my view the deliver is just another part of control showing that the dog is working for the handler. I would not like to see the rule changed. [/b]

[Diane McCann]

Nice to meet you too Glenice! As you will no longer be visiting this site I don't suppose you will read this reply but just in case - have you ever heard of to each thier own opinion? I did not propose the rule change in the first place and doubt that it will be passed, however those that did propose it can obvioulsy see merit in a change and I don't believe that they are people currently experiencing problems with delivery. I thought that most would be able to recongnise the fact that my tounge was in my cheek, particularly when I stated that "I was not at all biased". Perhaps you were merely having a bad day. By the way what would you like to be called?


Peter, I agree with you that there is nothing better than a nice front on delivery with the dog holding its head high and offering the bird to the handler. Whether the same thing done from the heel position should be penalised will obviously be up for debate and I feel that most will agree with you. My initial point was just to find out how much it was likely to be penalised currently.

Cheers, Diane

[Alan Donovan]

Hi Di

I've been called much worse things than "you judge"!

But as a judge I typically allocate around 4 points out of the 35 for the retrieve for "delivery". Unless the handler is seen to be wrestling with the dog to get the bird out of its mouth - then deductions start to pile up. Your problem would typically cost you 2 or 3 of the points on my sheet.

I do not like to advise without seeing you and the dog but it sounds like a typical male GSP combination of dominance and keenness - which probably you have encouraged to some extent by taking the bird from him when he is in the wrong position. As he does it in trials, not in training - he is choosing when to turn it on. I would try to confuse him by simulating a trial in your training - eg training with a large group, leaving him in the hide for an hour or so - etc. I would step back as he comes in, and don't take the bird from him unless he is in the right position, looking up at you submissively.

And you may need to get more respect - not being very nice all the time, etc.

Cheers - Alan

[Pam Lyons]

Just two comments:

1. Glennice, if there was a comma after you, would you have a problem with the comment?? I think it is a matter of semantics.

2. Alan, You don't have to be nasty to gain respect - on the contrary, respect is earned and you can be very nice to your dog and still have its respect. PS - Liked the picture of you and Taxi on page 44 of the March issue of National Dog.

[Gareth Tawton]

Hi all,

One could argue that delivery from the heel position is truley to hand ad you hand is at your side not your front. From a shooting point of view a dog that delivers to the side still has a view of any incoming birds while a front delivery gets a nice view of your crotch Some prefer an "obediance style" for some legitimate reasons that Peter mentioned Others believe a dog that leaps to the heel postion ready to deliver and retrieve the next bird at the same time is very impressive. Provided the delivery does not invovle refusal to deliver, pulling away snatching at the bird etc etc I think a polished delivery at side or in front is equally impressive and requires an equal amount of training. The rule change suggested allows the choice of position, front or side and I understand has also been put forward by NSW.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Providing it has been come to honestly it can never be wrong. I would like to think we are all capable and willing to change our opinion if a suitable case is put forward.

Glenice,

I believe the purpose of this website is to allow everyone to express an opinion. It is a fantastic opportunity for interested parties to communictae with people around the counrty and the world on subject we are all passionate about. I also see it as a chance to educate, learn, query, and discuss various topics for both handlers and judges alike. Unfortunatley one of the downsides is that the written word without facxial expressions can often by misinterprreted. Perhaps we should all bear this in mind when reading posts.

It would be a shame if someone of your experiance no longer has an input in this website. Already there are far to few experianced judges and triallers who are willing to put their "head on the chopping block" and pass comment on varying issues. Instead many of these people are happier to critisise posts privatley without offering their own input.

I hope you reconsider your position and look forward to your return to the website.


Regards,

Gareth

[Alan Donovan]

Hi Pam

Alan, You don't have to be nasty to gain respect - on the contrary, respect is earned and you can be very nice to your dog and still have its respect. PS - Liked the picture of you and Taxi on page 44 of the March issue of National Dog.

Maybeyou were reading something between the lines - "nasty" not part of the recommendation. But I believe that one has to be fair, firm, and consistent to achieve the level of teamwork to compete at the top level. I am not a believer in ear-pinching, toe-tweaking, etc. But not sure that mutual respect (leading to instant attention to the whistle at 150 metres out) will be achieved with the average male GSP by being very nice to him at all times.

Thank you for your kind words about Taxi (usually called Numnuts) - fame at last!

Cheers - Alan

[Pam Lyons]

Hi Alan,

As Gareth said, it's all in the interpretation of the words!!! Being nice does not mean 'giving in' to the dog - just having respect for his needs as well!! My male GSP responds immediately to the whistle as he was taught from a puppy whereas my girl takes a little longer. Different dogs - different methods!!!

The BOF with GSPx2

[Wayne Parkinson]

I think a polished delivery at side or in front is equally impressive and requires an equal amount of training. (Quote)

Gareth
I just can't agree with your statement. I have seen far more dogs with a lot of drive have trouble with the front delivery than the more deliberate retrievers.
So it's a trade off, get full points for style, egerness and action and make sure you can still get the dog in front for the delivery.

"From a shooting point of view a dog that delivers to the side still has a view of any incoming birds while a front delivery gets a nice view of your crotch Some prefer an "obediance style" for some legitimate reasons that Peter mentioned Others believe a dog that leaps to the heel postion ready to deliver and retrieve the next bird at the same time is very impressive." (Quote)

Gareth another statement I can't agree with. Experience has shown me that it's not an obedience style delivery. It is without doubt the most efficient way of getting a clean delivery of a wounded bird.
So I would call the front delivery the Hunting delivery.
I don't see any reason to Americanise our trials.

Wayne P.

[Graeme Parkinson]

I wish my brother would follow Glenice.

There is nothing better than watching a dog come immediately to heel focused on the next retrieve, watching so intently his eyes could burn a hole through the bird. It shows he knows exactly whats going on. I would like to see the rule changed so that while there is still another bird to be retrieved the dog can deliver to the side, on the last bird he must deliver in front. Now that would show real understanding.

But as far the original question goes. A side delivery is going to cost you points. You won't make any points up by trying to have him do it correctly. Repeated ignored commands are bad for your dog and bad for your score.

Graeme P

[Wayne Parkinson]

You need to do more hunting.
It's no good the dog spinning around for the next mark and delivering if you have to pick up a blind next.
There is nothing like a dog being right in front of you saying take this and then we will worry about the next one.
Finish the job at hand.

I do agree that you should not throw more points away chasing something that is just not going to happen at the trial. So we do have some common ground.


Wayne P.
Now were did Glenice go?