Is a re-run warranted

[Kerry Webster]

Just wondered what the general opinion might be from competitors and judges alike on the following scenario:

A triple mark, two long marks and one short. First long mark and second long mark separated by 135 degrees. First is 90 dgs left of f.p. second 45 dgs right of f.p. Short mark thrown over and landing close to, the line of the second mark to land directly in front of f.p. about thirty to forty metres out. Angle between second mark and short mark very narrow. Pickup first long mark then second, then the short mark.

All marks are signalled by the judge to be thrown and are visible in the air, with the short mark visible for the whole fall.

Dog picks up the first retrieve no trouble, then when sent for the second mark, it ducks left and cannot be called off the short mark and picks it up. Dog is out of the competition.
But, the judge then decides the short mark was shorter than it should have been and gives the dog a rerun.

No marks are called missthrows although clearly visible to the judge. The dog had already picked up one retrieve, disobeyed commands & picked up the wrong game.

Isn't the onus on the judge to have a distinct area of fall for a mark 'before' commencement of the run, and then be immediate in the missthrow call ? What comparison can be made then on the handlers who are able to call their dog off the tempter, and complete the run correctly ?

A similar episode occured last year where a competitor sent their dog for the incorrect item of game, was unable to call the dog off when realization of the error sank in, and the dog picked up the wrong bird. A re-run was offered, and a protest lodged by other participants and upheld.

What do you think ???

Kerry

[Gareth Tawton]

Kerry,

Hindsight is a truly great thing I am sure in a perfect world your method of dealing with this type of situation is correct. We don't live in a perfect world it is quite easy for a judge who is trying to watch both dog (for steadiness) and bird (for equality) to miss the exact landing point of a cast and assume all is OK. As the run progresses they then realise the bird has landed in an area that should have been called a no bird. Now what???

I don't think previous events such as poor handling on other birds are at all relevant. The judge must be satisified that the dog, on the bird in question, was disadvantaged by the fall. If so a rerun is probably in order. At the same time the judge may also decide that in their opinion the fall had no effect and the dog was going to fail anyway and leave the run stand. No real right or wrong answer to me just deal with the situation as you best see it at the time.

Gareth

[Kerry Webster]

Thanks for your input Gareth,

I agree that hindsight is an absolutely wonderful thing, and oft enough I think "why didn't I do this or that ?"

Having just begun the trainee judges course here, I am really becoming aware of different situations at trials, from a judges point of view. In this particular scenario I wondered how individual judges may look at it, and address it. That is why I asked the question, should an area for the fall be determined before the run commences ? and do some/most/none of the judges actually allocate an area such as this when lines to two falls are close.

I can understand what you are saying Gareth, that a judge may have to decide about disadvantaging a dog, or whether the dog was picking up regardless. What then, about a mark that is longer than the set mark requiring the dog to overrun all the scent from previous throws ? I would suppose, depending on the length past, this could also be a disadvantage to a dog.

Ah, so much to consider.
BTW good to see you doing so well with Monty. How is the new pup going?

Kerry

[Joanne Hagan]

Kerry wrote:

What then, about a mark that is longer than the set mark requiring the dog to overrun all the scent from previous throws ? I would suppose, depending on the length past, this could also be a disadvantage to a dog.

I'd be interested in this one as I believe this may have happened to my dog at our first trial. The bird thrower told me that his bird went about 10 feet back from all the rest and that he hunted where all the previous birds had fallen and was unlucky not to find his bird. I don't care, as there were other issues with the run, but am interested from a learning point of view as to what people think is a reasonable area from a consistency point of view. This was a novice run and I had no idea that the bird had gone back further than the rest until the bird thrower told me later.

Joanne

[Wayne Parkinson]

Hi Joanne
If this is the run I am thinking about the bird was in a very reasonable area. The dogs lack of experience was the problem here.
Nothing that a few more trials won't fix.

If you get to work a thrower at a few trials you will see there is always some variety in the falls. You will also get the side benefit of seeing how the dogs work up close.
Not enough people take advantage of this opportunity This is a short cut to understanding how the dogs react to different cover, scenting conditions, weather conditions etc.

On the broarder question of the area of the fall the judge makes a call on the individual bird taking into consideration everthing from the weather, wind, did the dog see it? But the poor bugger only gets it right if the dog does a brilliant run.

Wayne P.

[Joanne Hagan]

Howdy Wayne, yes that was the run, but that is just my inexperience showing through - was not sure if that was a similar situation that was being talked about, it sounded to me like it was. Definately agree about the dogs experience (well, lack of it) LOL.

Cheers
Joanne

[Gareth Tawton]

Hi all,

As Wayne said the fall area can only be determined when considering other factors such as wind, terrain cover etc. I try to have a rough area in my mind before the run starts but am willing to adapt to changes in conditions as they may or may not come. As you said Kerry so many things to think of. As a general rule I think most clubs provide good enough equipment for the birds to fall in acceptable area. Hence the long or short bird for want of a better word will still be in an acceptable hunt area of a dog. If the dog can't find the fall in an initial cast they should expand their cast until the bird is found, preferably using the wind to his advantage rather than running willy nilly. This would cover the range of throws we would generally get. Obviously when a something like a cliff face is involved then the fall area would be bound by the cliff face or any other obvious barrier to the dog.

Kerry it is amazing what some training will do . Monty is back in full training his foot and leg now fully healed. The pup at only 4 motnhs or so seems great but only time and training will really tell. He loves to retrieve, has a great nose and is pleasant around the house. So the rest is up to me. His adult teeth are coming thru so only a few more weeks till I force fetch him and we get serious.

Gareth

[Peter Doley]

Kerry, as a realitively new novice judge in Victoria and having gone
through the judges scene here, good on you for having a go. I'm sure you will become a great judge. Good Luck.

[Kerry Webster]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your words of encouragement. I will do my very best with the judges course, and hope I will be a fair and unbiased judge when I do get out there.

All the best,
Kerry