allocated guns at field trials

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allocated guns at field trials

Postby brettdavidson » Sun 23 Oct 2011 11:36 pm

Hi All,

Hoping that this might get a few clubs and people thinking. Why dont we have trials (s&r, p&s hpr) here in australia with allocated shooters? Most other countries use this meathod for shooting trials. Would more retriever owners compete in spaniel and retriever trials if there were allocated shooters? The way i see it is that it doesn't matter if you have the best trained dog in the country, if you are not a good shot, you wont get very far in a trial. Trials were put in place years ago to test the dog, not the aim of the handler.

Will be good to hear what others think.
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Re: allocated guns at field trials

Postby Joe Law » Wed 26 Oct 2011 6:46 pm

Brett, it seems to me that it would be a shame if your post of 23 Oct passed without a reply. Let me say I am not a shooter due more to lack of opportunity than any other reason but I love all gundogs and those special qualities that endear them to hunters. I feel sure that trialling dogs in field trials could be a wonderful experience for anyone interested in working their gundogs in those specialty areas for which they were bred. I was told thirty five years ago that I should stick with retrieving trials because unless you were a good shot I would be wasting my time trying to compete in field work. I was never sure how accurate this advice was but it would seem that today recreational hunters have themselves become a threatened species and that perhaps both field and retrieving trial enthusiasts could be doing more to preserve the working qualities of all the gundog breeds. As you say "Trials were put in place years ago to test the dog, not the aim of the handler"
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Re: allocated guns at field trials

Postby Diane McCann » Wed 26 Oct 2011 7:41 pm

Brett, the rules for utility gundog field trials were altered at the last rule change to allow for a handler, at time of entry, to nominate that they will use a shooter. The reason for the rule change was, in the main, to broaden the range of handlers able to be competitive in this sport to more than just very good shooters (who clearly also need to be very good dog handlers and have very good dogs), so that the sport may have more appeal and a longer life.

Not everyone was in favour of the change, and I am sure that there are some competitors who would still prefer that the change had not been passed, but in the whole it has been well received and I personally have benefited enormously by being able to compete with my dog. My lack of shooting skills would definitely have made my dog uncompetitive. Luckily for me there are plenty of handlers willing to shoot, very accurately , over my dog!

I can certainly understand why some judges and handlers are not thrilled with the change, as there is nothing better than watching a talented 'team' of dog and handler in the field with each of them upholding their end of the deal - and although I am unlikely to ever get there, this is to what I aspire.

I am not sure if the same rule applies to the other field trial disciplines Brett, and while it may not be exactly what you were referring to, we have made a step in that direction and thus opened our sport up to a wider range of potential compeitors.
Diane
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Re: allocated guns at field trials

Postby Roz Buckley » Fri 28 Oct 2011 6:19 am

While I like to shoot clays I have never considered myself a good enough shot for field work. Maybe this is how I can now get into this with my partner who is a good field shooter. Just to get him interested in coming with me is the next step. Will delve a little further now.
Roz
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Re: allocated guns at field trials

Postby Elio Colasimone » Tue 01 Nov 2011 12:24 pm

Yes Brett, Field Trials by their nature are self limiting and anything that may assist in increasing participation such as providing allocated gunners for those who want/need them should be embraced while still making every effort to provide an ‘equal’ playing field.
Several things make it tough for potential field triallers to become involved. Plenty of pre-trial exposure to live game under normal field conditions tends to one of the important elements in producing high order competitive dogs. Access to quality game holding properties is sometimes not within easy reach of those keen to have a go.
Throw in an inability to use or lack of proficiency in the use of firearms - and things get even tougher under traditional formats.

I’ll share my little bit of knowledge of the continental/HPR/utility gundog field trial scene. Overseas most competitions come under the umbrella of the FCI (Federation Cynologique Internationale). This permits trials in a full array of formats with singles or braces being run. The requirements for the dogs may be just to point/flush right through to the point/ flush/retrieve/waterwork/tracking etc. etc.
Where no retrieving is involved blanks are used. When retrieving becomes part of the test - handlers don’t shoot since it is almost exclusively done by support gunners.
Events in the non-retrieving format that I’ve judged overseas had the handlers using a hand held trigger mechanism that fired a primer at the flush.

The Australian trialling scene developed its own guidelines with a more rough shooter style that was reflective of a couple of people walking together and hunting. As a general rule all the shooting was done by the handlers and back ups were called when a handler seemed to be repeatedly missing. (Assuming there was a back up available.)
Current Utility rules allow - on application- for a back up gunner to be provided for any individual requesting one. This applies to states where game seasons are still in place.
In states with no game seasons ( Qld., NSW, WA) alternate Trials are being attempted where blanks are fired and live rounds possibly only used on feral game (hares/rabbits) by back up gunners. Non- native items of game are cast and retrieved at appropriate times - still using blanks.
These certainly provide an opportunity for all to get involved.

There are also other issues at play. In a low participation sport it is not always straightforward to get hold of a proficient non competitor to take on the role as the gunner.
Generally speaking it seems to me that it would be fairly unlikely experienced handlers would want all the gunning to be done by someone else. As your partnership with your pointing dog develops you begin to get a better sense of where the game is likely to break and you position yourself accordingly to back up your dog. For safety reasons gunners position themselves slightly to one side and behind the dog and handler. On the odd occasion with large coveys of birds in moderate to heavy cover some birds may lift up and around and fly away behind the gunner who automatically does the job of bringing the game down – sometimes unsighted to dog and handler. The dog and handler may actually be watching other birds heading off in a completely different direction.

Certainly as far as the Utility folk are concerned, except for the limitations of who is available to be used the issue of support gunners for those who need/want them is covered.

The Spaniel/Retriever folk may have a different slant on all of this. A couple of Spaniels busying themselves amongst the tussocks with rabbits scurrying in different directions may add another layer of complexity for the role and positioning of the back up gunner.
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