team championships

[Julian Bielewicz]

Again, while battling a little insomnia, I found news of a recent International Retrieving Challenge (The Atlantic Cup) between England, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland (Eire), Scotland, Wales and the United States. Each team consisted of four handlers with their dogs.

With our quarantine regime we'd find it all but impossible to even run a trans-Tasman competition BUT what about the idea of an inter-state championship? The four top dogs from each State/Territory Championship? The top three? Even the top two might make an interesting concept.

Or has someone already thought of this and come across too many problems?

Julian

[Kerry Webster]

Hi Julian,

I saw the results of something similar, conducted in England, but restricted to Golden Retrievers. There were four dogs and handlers from each country which included United States and Canada, as well as some European countries and Ireland, Wales and England and Scotland.

I would imagine that some kind of sponsorship was provided for all these teams to attend, as was probably the case in the results item that you saw.

With the vast distance in Australia, between the fpur states in the East, and W.A., S.A., N.T and Tasmania, I couldn't see any such competition happening without the input of sponsorship; 1. for airfares and 2. for the numerous costs involved in travelling and staying with a dog interstate. I know: I have done it five times.

Kerry

[jeff b]

Hi Folks

I'm in the UK, I train, work, compete, instruct, breed and judge gundogs. I have 8 labradors at present.

I'm responding to Julian's posting regarding the International Retriever Event held here in the UK with 13 teams competeing. This was for any retriever, not just goldens. I wrote a report for a UK internet magazine which can be located at if interested:

http://www.wildfowling.co.uk/magazine/gundog.htm

Just scroll down the left hand side.

Jeff

[Peter Betteridge]

Jeff
Welcome to the site .You are the first UK member on our forum,and I for one am espessially keen to learn more about in british gundog trials.I was very interested in your report in the internet magazine and I must say somewhat confused by some of the concepts and judging decisions from your description of the difficulty of the tests. I thought that no scoreing the American lady with the Golden for giving a mininal amount of tongue was unduly harsh. with shotguns blazing away what possible difference could it make if a dog lets out a couple of excited whelps ??,and then handling on marks is not heavily penalized??
Also the distances seem very short and I wonder how it is possible to fairly evaluate the realitive merits of gundogs in the field with 80 yard double marks and such short blinds. it seems to me that the Americans weren't given a chance to show what they could do. I also dont understand how one dog was no scored for forging in the walkup line? What does that have to do with his ability to retrieve?
In Australia we loosely base our trials around the American model so the UK trialing scene and scoreing system is not widely understood.Perhaps you would be prepared to fill us in ?
As a professional trainer do you only train 8 labs or do you train other dogs as well and are all the 8 labs owned by the same person?
sorry to hit you with so many questions but curiosity has got the better of me.
Once again thanks for being part of our forum, we appreciate your contribution
regards peter betteridge

[jeff b]

Hi Peter

So as you get the idea of UK field trials I will just copy a posting I did for a US forum, I will willingly answer any questions. The 8 labs I have are all my own, some retired, some competing in FT and 2 in training. There are 2 types of competition in the UK, FT in the shooting season using game as it is shot and working tests in the summerwhich uses mainky dummies. The point you made about our tests not showing the US dog to their best is not applicable. This was a UK test, in the UK, under UK regs. Everyone knew what they were entering. If we went to the US compete it would be in the US type competition. The basic difference between UK and US dogs, broadly speaking, is in the UK they are judged on their gamefinding abilities whereas in the US it is more the trainers ability. Anyway here is a brief description of UK FT's.

Here in the UK our dogs are never expected to retrieve from 400
yards, multi entry, multi-point water/land blinds or marks etc. etc.

This is not what UK gundog work is all about. Our dogs are trained
to work in an entirely natural environment although 250 yard
retrieves are not uncommon. In a UK field trial the birds are
retrieved as ther are shot, you could be asked to do a blind
retrieve of snipe from a swamp for which you would be given a
approximate guide as to the area, or a lightly pricked pheasant
runner out of sight in dense woods, perhaps a wounded 6 - 8 pound
screaming wounded hare deep in a valley thick with bramble, maybe a small grouse from acres of gorse covered moorland, geese or duck from
lakes or even floating down rivers..........you get the idea.

Nothing is set up, staged or artificial, as a handler in a FT you
never know until it is shot what you will be asked to retrieve or from
where. Many times the dog can be sent for a retrieve, flushing
unshot game on the way which the dog is expected to ignore. The dog
is also expected to walk in a line of maybe six dogs, 3-4 judges, 6-
8 guns, stewards and game carriers, at heel, off lead while birds
are flushed and shot also to sit quietly while another dog is
working. At a drive the dogs will sit quietly in the line while
scores of birds are flushed over the guns in the line, many birds
will fall some dead some wounded and flapping and some will get up
and run, all of which can happen within a few yards of the sitting
dogs. The two most crusial elements for a UK gundog are obedience
and steadiness.

The dogs are judged on their natural gamefinding abilities, plus
their response to their handler, on actual work in the shooting
field and it has been that way for 100 years or more.

This is what UK gundogs are for.

Jeff

[Wayne Parkinson]

Jeff.

That sounds fantastic. Real hunting lifts the game to a whole new level for the dogs. In my opinion there is nothing like real hunting to test a dog.
A dog hunting hard for wounded game and bringing it to hand is really satisfying.

Keep it real.

Wayne p.

[Peter Betteridge]

I agree wayne
it does sound great but I wonder how judges are able to fairly access the working capabilities of individual retrievers when when each run is different. Also having blinds that have no specific location,may have the ability to turn the run into a lucky dip.(over in that direction) could set up an entirely new set of circumstances for each dog.
I would be interested to know how UK judges score and how much movement on the walkups consitutes forging and a disqualification.I also still dont understand how in a real shooting enviroment ,giving tongue can be an automatic disqualification. Jeff ,how steady is steady? could you explain the standard for us.
jeff,how many dogs run in a typical UK trial? do you have a novice or derby stake as well? can anyone enter? and do you have multilpe judges for all stakes
keen to learn more
regards peter betteridge

[Wayne Parkinson]

I'm not quite sure knowing the exact location of the blind means anything in fairly assessing the working capabilities of dogs. So what if they have the same retrieves, it all boils down to what a particular judge likes and dislikes. Having the same retrieve may make the decision easier to reach by it doesn't impact on the fairness.

Our field trials here in Victoria are run on live game. Every find is different and the judge gives an opinion, some days you have good luck and some days you have bad luck. Just like hunting. The judge may not like your dog’s style or whatever but in the end the cream rises to the top.

Make no mistake nothing takes the place of real hunting situations.

Wayne P.

[Prue Winkfield]

Have to agree with Wayne - give me hunting any time. What we do here does not have much to do with hunting and I don't imagine an awful lot to do with what the dogs were originally developed for 100 years ago and more. However, we and the Americans have developed a 'dog game' in each country which endeavours to make it fair for everyone but we should remember it is 'just a game of fetch' as Alan Donovan once said! Real hunting is a completely different kettle of fish (IMO) - the UK scene is completely different - for one they have more than one judge and handlers do not shoot themselves. In Germany for instance dogs are tested on retrieving a shackled duck in a reed covered dam - they just have to work it out for themselves. viva la difference as the French say

[jeff b]

I have videos of US style training/competitions [Mike Lardy]and the performances are truly impressive. Purley in competitive terms that style of competition is fairer in that each dog is judged on the exact same criteria, with UK FT's there is certainly an element of 'luck' involved, but we accept that.

However our Working Tests held in the summer, are along similar lines to yours and the US in that each dog takes the same test, being outside the shooting season dummies and/or cold game are used, but, a dog could win a hundred of these and they count for nothing as far a titles are concerned. The title of Field Trial Champion can only be earned through success at FT's held in the shooting on live game as previously described.

Jeff

[Peter Betteridge]

Jeff
thanks for filling us in on the mystery of UK field trials.they sound terriffic.is it possible to purchase any video's of your trials.I guess it was a bit unfair to hit you with so many questions in my last post, so i'll let you sort through them at your leisure
I can't help myself, one last question. do Uk field trialers ever import Australian or US bloodlines or do your triallers consider them to hard to control?
regards peter Betteridge

[jeff b]

Answers to a few questions:

How steady is steady: A dog is expected to sit quietly at heel throughout the time it is in the line unless called upon to retrieve. If walking-up the dog should be by the side of the handler, should stop when the handler stops and walk when the handler walks. If the dog is forging ahead of the handler and there is a gap between the dog and the handler it is too far and may result in disqualification, in any event it would be noted in the judges book and could count against it in the final stages of a trial. As far as noise, whining or giving tongue is an eliminating fault, I have been trialing for many years and cannot ever remember a dog barking or yelping whilst under the judge. The reasons behind these requirement is that if I am out shooting I want my dog to walk quietly at heel and off lead, stopping when I stop etc. and retrieving when commanded. I don't want a dog that is over excited and noisy, disturbing game and needing my attention to control him. I am shooting, the dog has his job.

Handling on marks: If at all possible it is avoided, but constantly working on ground containing loads of game the dog could get sidetracked or the terrain may be difficult and need handling onto the mark. Also, during a drive several birds may be shot in view of the dog, but the handler is usuallydirected by the judge to send the dog for a specific bird. The bottom line is that it is vital the bird is retrieved as failure could mean being put out. The judge will assess how much of the handling was acceptable and how well the dog responded and judge accordingly.

Blinds: These are situations where the dog hasn't seen the bird actually shot, the judge may seek confirmation from the gun as the the location which may be fairly precise or at times aproximate, again the judge will assess the quality of the dogs work, hunting and the ability of the handler to hold the dog in an area. If the dog fails another dog will be called upon and givin the exact same information. Sebsequent dog who were in the line at the time the bird was shot may be called on and usually sent from the same place. In the event of all dogs failing the judges will go forward and search the area, in they fing the bird all dogs are disqualified.

Trials: You have to be a member of the club staging a FT in order to enter, there are probably 170 such clubs in the UK, retrievers, spaniels, HPR's plus breed specific clubs. Regarding retrievers there are mainly three kinds of FT. Novice, All Aged and Open. If the dog wins a novice it can only enter AA or Open, winning open stakes is the only way to achieve FTCh status and the only way of getting into the annual retriever championship. There are 1 day stakes [normally 12 - 16 dogs] and 2 day stakes [20 -24 dogs]. All FT's are grossly over subscribed therefore the runners are decided by a draw [this is the first bit of luck you need], it is also why most people are member of many clubs [28 in my case], so you also have to be prepared to travel.

Judging: Judges are appointed by the UK Kennel Club. To become a judge takes a few years, an obvious deep knowledge of FT's and the shooting scene, have handled a dog to at least one win. You start as a non-panel judge then move up to a 'B' panel [that's me] and the an 'A' panel. In order to achieve B then A status you are judged by existing 'A' panel judges at a minimum number of trials over a minimum number of years.

Ther are two main judging systems for retrievers, 3 judge and 4 judge. Under a 3 judge system there will be six dogs in line, two for each judge and under a 4 judge system there will be four dogs in line, two for each pair of judges. Dogs are scored an a,b or c, + or -, in reality if a dog picks up a 'b' it is likely to be out as normally only 'a' retrieve dogs are taken forward to later rounds. If dogs are of of a high standard even 'a-' will be dropped.

Dogs: I do not know of any Australian or American working labradors here in the UK, that doesn't mean there arn't any though, this is not because we would find your dogs hard to control it is because we are very proud of the bloodlines we have, the dogs are carefully selected from breeding stock that show all the qualities we need in a working retriever and to deviate from this would be an unknown quantity, that said, I have no doubt that we could take one of your puppies and be successful and you could take one of ours and be equally successful. Although I doubt either would reach the top in our respective competions.

Training: UK training is almost exclusively positive reinforcement, we do not use FF, ear pinch, nerve hitch, heeling stick, training table or e-collar. That is not to say some trainers are not heavy handed but it is somewhat rare, most training is reward based.

Videos: There are several training videos but in order to see UK FT's I can recommend the Championship videos which can be obtained from here.

http://www.paulfrenchvideo.com

You would need to check the format is suitable.

Hope this is something to be going on with.

Jeff

[jeff b]

I've just looked at the web site below and it has been updated since I last looked, there are a number of Championship pictures which may be of interest.

http://www.paulfrenchvideo.com

Jeff

[Peter Betteridge]

jeff
thats a fantastic insight into Uk trials.thanks for all the info.I will order some video's from paul french.Do the Dane's and the French,Germans and Italians use similar rules to the UK?
You also mentioned that places in the trial are often balloted. Does that mean that people often miss out on competing?what percentage of entry's get accepted?
In Australia every entry is excepted but I guess we also run up to 25 dogs to one judge (approx) In fact I ran in a novice trial at Shepparton Victoria in 1992 that had a field of 50 and only 1 judge
UK training methods do appear alittle 'Amish" as the Americans would say but it obviously works for you.Maybe one day you will come out to Australia and observe our trialing scene.We will make you very welcome.
regards peter betteridge

[jeff b]

Hi Peter

1. I'm afraid I don't know anything helpful about the Danes, French, Germans etc.

2.It can be difficult to get a run as there are at times well over 150 entries for 12 or 24 placesdepending on the stake. This is why serious trialers are members of several clubs and are prepared to travel. The nature of our trials, on properly organised shoots, prevents large entries, you would need an enormous quantity of game to service larger entries and shooting on UK estates is not cheap. Working tests that are held in the summer months are different, there is usually no limit on entries as they are set tests and use either cold game or dummies.

3. What is 'Amish'

4. If you do send for any videos the 2002 retriever championship is good.

5. I would love to visit Austrailia, maybe sometime in the future.

Jeff