team championships

[Alan Donovan]

Hi Prue

However, we and the Americans have developed a 'dog game' in each country which endeavours to make it fair for everyone but we should remember it is 'just a game of fetch' as Alan Donovan once said!

"Just a game of fetch"......... Moi??

I have just washed my mouth out with soap.

As we both know "Retrieving Trials for Gundogs" are not just a matter of Life or Death. They are Much More Serious than that.

Cheers - Alan

Woops - hope nobody thinks I should hand in my judges licence for being irreligious.

[Maureen Cooper]

Hi Jeff

Good to hear news from the UK re Field Trials and as an ex Pom, I have been to both a Field Trial and Working Tests. Loved the trial immensely and with Drakeshead, Birchstone and Kelvinhead in my pedigrees I watch and have several Championship videos by Paul French. Found the Novice Working Test very easy and wished I had had my dog with me!!

We have a penalty for giving tongue in our rules with up to a 5 point deduction and also our rules state that the dog 'should sit quietly with his handler...walk at heel' and re the latter yet another rule states ' the dogs head to be close to the side of heel or immediately behind the heel of the handler' and I recall Tess Lawrence? being eliminated from a Championship for her dog forging when only about 6 dogs remained. Our control area has 10 points to be gained and I recall one of our National winners saying that he wanted every one one of them. He probably always got them! I seem to remember that you also cannot speak to your dog in the line so if you had to say 'Heel' constantly like some of our triallers, you would be put out very quickly!

Not many of our Labradors would be capable of UK Field Trials , whining, barking or unsteadiness would eliminate them! Three out of my four would fall into this category via the latter!

I did not find the blinds or marks too unequal, here when dog after dog has gone to the same area and retrieved either a blind or mark from the same area, the track back and area of fall or placement becomes much heavier scented and therefore easier for successive dogs.

I found the dog work in sugarbeet, heavy cover, their memory and ignoring those pheasants etc being flushed as the dog went out on a mark, just great to watch. We have nothing like it here. I have also been to Australian Field Trials but no comparison to the UK. The cover is the difference. Maybe more cover in Tassie so cant speak about that State.

Regards
Maureen

[Peter Betteridge]

jeff
thanks for your advice.I will definitely order the 2002 championship tape."Amish" training is an Americanism term for the few trainers in the US who don't use electronic training aids. And train with the 'simple" or"Amish" positive reinforcement method. One of our bulletin board members from the U.S.A , Paul Young is an example. Many people believe that it is not possible to train a dog to a high standard using "Amish" methods but I think Paul has proved them wrong.
What is the average entry cost to participate in your 'open' events?
When you ran the International retriever event at Sherbourne did all the competing european country's have to make major adaptions to their own local rules in order to compete??I know you mentioned that you were unfamiliar with the rules of other country's but i thought you might have picked up an idea on just how much they had to adjust. Like Maureen I would have no chance of succeeding in your trials with one of my dogs. In fact doing long walkups with no reinforcement commands would probably eliminate any dog I've ever owned.I find it difficult to get my head around how a dog can be that under control and still have enough retrieving drive to fly out and retrieve 100 birds in a shoot and hunt for hours on end.For my dogs to still completely still while birds dropped out of the sky all around them they would have to be a corpse.
I like Maureen have had Kelvinshead ,drakeshead and Derbyshire bloodlines in previously dogs.Many of todays Australian labs would have Sandylands Tan back in their pedigree. he was brought out in the 1960's and sired a national RTCh as well as many successful show dogs. Maureen would know alot more of the history than I would.
Thanks for all the detail Jeff
peter betteridge

[jeff b]

Hi Maureen, good to hear from an ex Pom, what part of the UK did you originate from? I think our field trials are different to many other places outside Europe but they are designed to test the gamefinding qualities of our dogs. As you will know, on many occasions dogs are expected to work completely on their own and out of sight of the handler and come up with the goods.

Are there any good videos/dvd's regarding Australian field trials. A short while ago I sent to the US for two championship dvd's, each one covered a seven day event, but, in several hours of viewing there was not a single retrieve, absolutely zero dog work, it was all adverts, reports and interviews. What a waste of money. At least with the Paul French videos you get three hours of solid dog work.

Anyway let me know.

Jeff

[jeff b]

Hi Peter, I think when you see the latter stages of the 2002 Championship you will agree the our 'Amish' methods achieve high standards of work.

Field Trial entry fees are around £15 - £20 one day stakes and £25 - £35 for two day stakes per dog. Of course if you are travelling a long distance you also have fuel cost [twice your price] and maybe two nights accomodation. So you could easily knock a hole in £150 for a 2 day stake.

The major changes for the visiting teams at Sherborne Castle were mainly for the Americans and Canadians. Their competions are totally different to ours, and I gather similar to yours. The European competitions are similar I believe.

Sandyland are essentially show dogs/champions. Many were exported to the US and Australia as they tend to be larger than our FT dogs. I have 2 books listing all FTCh's from 1904-1999, there is not a single Sandylands FTCh.

Your turn now, what are your FT's like, do you expect the same from the dogs as the US, bullet straight lines and no popping over 300 yard + retrieves. I read on the forum that e-collars are not 'legally' used so how do you train for such demanding performances. Do you do things like FF, pile work, single and double T's, swim-bys, bird boys, and terms like poison birds and eraser birds etc.

Also what is the hunting scene down under, do you do what we call rough shooting, wildfowling, driven shooting, etc.

Jeff

[Maureen Cooper]

Hi Jeff

Came from village called Neasham on the river Tees, border of Durham and Yorkshire. Saw the Working tests at Game Fairs and the trial near Thirsk. My Lab there had FT Ch Galleywood Shot in her pedigree and she would have made a good gundog had I known about them when I lived there!! Saw the WT's etc after I left in 1980 and become the owner of a trial bred bitch whom I competed with until she was 12 years old.

We have two disciplines here, Field trials and Retrieving trials and dogs can gain both their Field trial Championship and their Retrieving trial Championship. Not many folks do both but some do and have dual titles. In Field trials we have both Pointer and Setter, Spaniel and Retriever and Utility gundog trials so all breeds of gundog are catered for. All can gain their FT title with whatever gundog they are using. These latter trials are run on live game with ducks, rabbits,hares, quail and in Tassie, native water hens as game. You either shoot yourself or can use a shooter, most shoot themselves ( not literally!) Retrieving trials are simulated shoots with dead game cast from a large type of catapult with scuba rubbers. Blinds are placed in situ. We have to carry a 12 gauge,u/o or s/s, and use cartridges with primers or blanks. We have to fire at the apex of the cast birds, feral pigeons. Blinds can be rabbits or birds and very rarely are dead quail used.

We have a lot of rough shooters ( a lot of bunnies!!) but no driven shoots or wildfowling I am aware of. Many shooters have access to private properties where they are allowed to shoot anything feral such as goats, pigs, deer, feral cats and dogs etc. There are now a few properties where pheasants are bred and released for organised shooting.

Yes, we do FF, pile work,singleT, double T etc etc as you mention but not everyone falls into this category. I have done FF with one dog but dont do it now but the vast majorityof folks, including myself do all the pattern work. Equally, some folks have e-collars as they are not banned in all States and those who have them in the banned States would use them on their private training grounds. The collars can be bought interstate where legal.

Dogs are now expected to run straight lines but we have not got to the 300 metre blind..yet! I have videos of several of our Nationals and other trials, not quite Paul French standard but would give you an idea. Hope this gives you a rough picture of our trials scene.

Regards
Maureen

[Prue Winkfield]

Very good description Maureen - guess the duck shooting on swamps is the nearest thing to the UK water fowling and of course we have the duck shooting on the rice which the brits don't have. One thing though - unfortunately in our Field Trials you have to shoot yourself and if you are a rotten shot as I am - it is a bit handicap! One reason in my opionion there are so few women field trialing in Australia(I am the only one in Victoria in any discipline at the moment) whereas there are plenty in the UK where there are gunners. Here, a judge 'may' offer you a shooter once you have missed enough and then you usually only get one more chance with a shooter - they say it is supposed to be a team sport - between you and your dog and so you must be able to shoot to kill.

[jeff b]

Prue, Maureen.

I find it odd that handlers have to shoot in your competitions, in the UK there are many successful male and female handlers who never pickup a gun, why would the handlers ability to shoot be important in assessing the ability of the dogs?

Field trials are just a small proportion of the work we do with our gundogs. During the shooting season [August - February], in addition to FT's, judging, shooting, I am out with usually 5 -6 dogs, on an average of 2 -3 days each week working them on formal shoots picking-up. This requires that you stand well back behind a line of guns so that you can direct your dogs to locate birds that have flown a long way back, birds that have fallen in inacessible places and most importantly any wounded birds that have run on. Others use their dog as 'peg' dogs, a well trained dog will sit out in front of his owner, marking down any birds that the owner shoots, after the end of the drive the dogs will collect the shot birds. During the summer months there is pigeon and rabbit shooting and rough shooting. All of which, together with the training, makes for a very busy life in gundogs.

Maureen, thanks for the PM, are there any commercially produced videos/DVD's of Australian fiel/retriever trials I can buy.

Jeff

[Prue Winkfield]

Jeff the argument given is that if you do not have to shoot you can concentrate more on your dog! The powers that be say it is not a shooting competitoin but it definitely is! Where do you live? I am off to the UK at the end of August - near Cambridge where my sister is about to get a Flatcoat pup for pheasants on their farm. Prue

[Julian Bielewicz]

Well folks, it looks as if my little bout of insomia has inspired a few responses - even if Peter Betteridge managed to hi-jack the actual topic Not to worry, Peter, the ensuing discussion is proving to be quite intersting.

Jeff, my last recollection [1980s] of field trials in the UK (like Maureen, I too am a Pom - the surname is merely "Smith" spelt backswards) was of a Spaniel trial somewhere in North Wales. I took along my 'new' village neighbour who had expressed an interest in purchasing a spaniel and in trialing the dog. I can clearly recall a black [cocker?] spaniel by the name of 'Nigger' [now try getting away with giving your dog a label like that in this politically-correct world] taking out first prize with a briliant last run. The 'line' was moving forward across a ridge when a rabbit suddenly broke behind us; one of the 'guns' turned as he heard the noise and neatly shot the runaway which somersaulted several feet before disappearing over the ridge. The second judge ('Nigger' had already performned a great retrieve before the 'first' judge) was directed to 'fetch' which he did with aplomb.

But to return to the present, as I understand it (from reading Derry Argue) all is not exactly strawberries-and-cream in the UK trialling scene. Didn't Derry and his ilk actually challenge the Kennel Club's 'right' to dominate all trials? Wasn't the issue taken to 'legal advice' with the Kennel Club backing off and, on theory, allowing clubs to run their own trials?

Didn't the Danish field triallers take this one step further and actually form their own separate and independant association which at last count had some 2000 adherents?

I suppose that in the final analysis the 'scene' in the UK is different from that in Australia (as it is different from that in the USA) and any comparison is tantamount to a chalk-and-chesse scenario. You do what is best for your situation while the Americans do what is necessary for their conditions and we in Australia fumble to meet our own peculiar rules [although I personally object to the descriptive 'fetch game' - it is certainly more than that ].

What we perhaps have in common, besides the general spirit of the sport, is the Australian adoption of Britsih bloodlines - and here I must admit to a bias and leaning towards Labradors. I first 'met' the 'Drakeshead' pedigree during a brief return to the UK in the early 1980s and eventually brough out 'George'- oozing with 'Drakeshead' from almost every pore [paw?].

'George' and I had to put up with some friendly [and on occasions not so friendly] abuse concerning his long legs - it seemed that most Labradors competing in Queensland during the '80s had stubby shanks - and a distinct 'curl' to his coat whereas most Labradors in 'Bananaland' had flat coats with a sheen. The longer shanks proved their worth in one particularly difficult Novice run which involved climbing back up a steep muddy bank while it was stiill pouring down with rain; we were the only finishers! Quite recently I came across a photograph of FTCH Berrystead Berry(UK) [found in Geoge's pedigree] and there is a distinct 'curl' to his coat.

Here in Queensland we have the honour of staging the 2004 National Championships (at which yours truly will be a bird steward) and I for one, following an absence from the sport of some 16 years (those interested in 'hearing' my views of the changes during that span might like to read throuhg the 'new pup' postings once I can return to Garrick's enquiries), am looking foward to seeing the standards on display.

Julian

[Bo Curtis]

I've forgotten what the original topic was, but its been interesting.
I came across this article that describes the difference between American hunt tests and field trials.
http://www.wildfowling.co.uk/magazine/evan.htm
The British scene certainly sounds interesting. Wonder how many of us could acually afford it?

[Peter Betteridge]

Bo
the original topic was an examination of the viability of holding an interstate championship.I think Kerry answered Julian's question regarding practicality.The vast distances and the different level of competition from state to state make the concept almost impossible. Julian I am sorry for hi jacking your topic but Jeff's involvement made us all curious about UK trialling.One of our US bulletin board members,Andre,competed in a UK style competition in the deep south of the USA. The competition was organized by Robert Milner and had a UK judge.US boards were buzzing with indignation after the event. The vast majority of people felt that Andre was ripped off. Now we have a clear perspective from Jeff it answers alot of questions for me.
Jeff if you are interested in finding out more about the Australian trialling scene I suggest you go to the articles and archives page on this site and click on Robert Tawton's "australian retrieving trials" he gives a brief history, explains our runs and compares our trials to the americans
Jeff thanks for your patience in answering our questions.I hope Bob's article answers yours
regards peter betteridge

[Maggie Hankinson]

Hi Jeff

Have enjoyed visiting your website from time to time to catch up with retrieving in UK. I'm another ex-Pom over here in Western Australia having some sucess with and Irish bred labrador (Ulstare Oak x Pochlea Remus lines). He has just turned 3 and qualified for his Retrieving Trial Champion title a couple of months ago. He hasn't had too much trouble adapting to the Australian conditions and style of trialing and has generally been a joy to work with for someone with a preference for positive training methods. I think a number of the our top Australian labradors have some of the English working lines not too far back in their pedigree.

I never experienced field trials in UK for myself, but had an opportunity to see some working tests a couple of years ago. I will be travelling to England next week with first stop the CLA Game Fair and look forward to seeing some of the events there. Would also like to visit other trials if there is anything happening in the next month, where would be the best place to look for information on gundog events?

Maggie Hankinson
Perth WA

[jeff b]

Maggie

Have enjoyed visiting your website from time to time to catch up with retrieving in UK.

Which website do you mean?

Re yours and Prues visit to the UK. Let me have the dates from and to, plus which area you will be and I will try to find something interesting for you to visit.

In the meantime check out the following:

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/diary

Jeff

[Wayne Parkinson]

HI Jeff.

We have had a couple of Flatcoats and were wondering
if you see many Flatcoats working at the shoots over there?

Regards

Wayne P.