American dogs

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American dogs

Postby Brian Tarver » Thu 18 Oct 2012 3:31 am

I am a new member,just thought I would say "hello"from the U.S.with a question . I am also a member of a forum in the U.K.and have noticed that they do not import American dogs eventhough quarantine regs can be overcome if you import a pup at 12 weeks old. My question is what do you seek to gain with an American bloodline? The British seem to think our field trial dogs are to hard,crazy,and not "calm enough "for there liking? In what I have read here you seem to be in the middle of us and the British ,more toward our way of training,more open minded (even the use of the e-collar though not used in your country much). Are British lines also brought in as well? I would imagine that Australia has some great dogs that maybe you would like to keep to yourselves,couldn't blame you for that!
I have experience in hunt test and field trial dogs here and out of all of our dogs which bloodline would you import and why?
I look forward in reading and learning more about your dogs and dogsport,the same great things we all enjoy and love,we are all just in different parts of the world.
B.T.
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Re: American dogs

Postby Prue Winkfield » Thu 18 Oct 2012 12:10 pm

Welcome to our forum Brian and you should get some intersting answers. I am not a Lab person so will leave them to answer in detail. However, having been to your trials believe ours are closer to yours than UK trials. Also, the majority of training matrial is from the US and a couple of US pros have been over here to help us. This probably leads to a US bias amonst the top handlers here. Having said that, we have had UK dogs in Australia in the past and there are some competing succesfully here at the moment.
Hope you get some explanitory replies from Lab owners. Prue
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Re: American dogs

Postby Brian Tarver » Thu 18 Oct 2012 1:20 pm

Thank you Prue,for your reply. I am interested in learning from others how and why our "dog cultures" are the way they are. I was really only taught one technique to train Labradors and have found that people around the world have many different and fascinating methods. An open mind is very useful to a trainer.
Although I don't know when,I have read recently where one of our well known trainers Judy Aycock put on a training seminar years ago in New Zealand,I did not know that she had done anything outside the U.S. I really didn't know that there was any kind of U.S.training influence in Australia,still I will bet that are things that are unique to you never heard of here in the States.
I am also curious about the exciting mixture of an Australia and American bred dog. We do get some of the "British labs" but they are more of a novelty because they are usually 2nd and 3third generation but there are exceptions.
Lots of questions!
B.T.
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Re: American dogs

Postby Gareth Tawton » Thu 18 Oct 2012 5:08 pm

Hi Brian,

What a great group of questions. I'm sure there will be a whole heap of responses that dont get put up in a public forum but for what it is worth I'll give you my opinion and specifically on labradors.

I have attended the Irish national as well as US trials. I would agree that our trials are probably somewhere in between but have more of a leaning towards the US. This is no surprise given our original rules where based around those found in the US in the 1950's. These days I would say we are more between a Hunt test and Field Trials in the US. Over the years Jim Swan Judy Aycock and Bill Eckett X2 have made trips to Australia. Their knowledge and the vast amount of info now available thru the internet has also contributed to an American influence in our trials. Unfortunatley it is difficult to find much in the way of Uk based training info that is "modern" and we have not had a European trainer come out here.

Over the last 15 or so years the number of hunters has dropped in Australia. This in turn has led to a drop in the number of kennells breeding "working" labradors. At best I would say we only have a handful plus another couple who "claim" to breed dual purpose labradors i.e dogs capable of being shown and do some form of work. I think all our breeders are doing the best they can with a limited market and small gene pool to work with.

Over the last decade or more a large portion of our top performers have had one particular sire in their pedigree. He was imported from Scotland and I think history will show he has had a massive input into working labs in this country. As the generations go by his input is being diluted but we have had little new working genetics to add to the mix. It is rare if ever that you hear a breeder comment that they have used a particular stud dog for some working ability he may bring to the table. Generally dogs seem to be used for asthetic reasons not working traits. I stress this is not the case with all but most. Add to this that some of our very best credentialled working dogs were never or sparingly used at stud and you end up with a small and tight gene pool of working dogs.

Over the last few weeks leading up to our national and during the year I have trained my US import with Karl Britton and his UK import. The similarities between the two dogs is unbelievable. They have a similar build, tall long athletic and powerful.They are both very driven dogs but have a gentle calm disposition around the house. They have nothing in common except that they have very strong working pedigrees from different parts of the world. I suspect that it doesn't realy matter where you are in the world we all chase the same basic traits.

When I looked to import a dog into Australia it was more about expanding our gene pool and a belief that the "working" lines in general in this country were being water down. I was prepared to go anywhere in the world but in reality that means the UK or the US. I chose the US simply because there is much easier access to health clearances that is available to the public than the UK. I was able to import a dog with generations of good hip and elbow scores, she is clear of pra eic and cnm. Add to this a pedigree filled with working titles and I thought I could rest assured I would be getting good working stock. I am sure dogs like this exist in the UK. However it seems you need to be "in the know" to find these types of dogs in the UK.

I'm sure there are plenty of other good breeders in the US but in the end I settled on Watermarks and Candlewoods kennels. Both have a proven background and excellent health clearances.

Over the years we have seen some great dogs imported from Ireland, Scotland, England and the US and we have also seen the odd dud!! Where the dog is from doesn't matter.It is what it can do that counts.

Gareth
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Re: American dogs

Postby Diane McCann » Thu 18 Oct 2012 7:26 pm

Hello Brian, it is nice to hear that you are so interested in different trialling methods and different dog breeding ideas and desirable traits. I, like Prue, am not a Labrador person (we both breed and trial German Shorthaired Pointers) but love working dogs of all persuasions.

As a side issue you may be interested to know that in Australia Retrieving Trials (I think called field trials in the USA) are not restricted to the retrieving breeds but are open to all of our gundogs so include the HPR breeds such as the GSP, GWP, Vizsla, English Pointer, Irish Setter, Brittany Spaniel, Weimaraner and even the Cocker Spaniel (apologies to the Cocker Spaniel people, it is just that it is a very rare occurrence).

One of the interesting topics of conversation often held around the campfire at Australian retrieving trials is the type and function conversation. What I mean by this is that to some of us the 'typical' appearance of the breed is very important and to some others it is only the working ability and performance that matters. This latter opinion has lead to many breeds in Australia become split with a 'show' type and a 'working' type that can in some instances hardly be recognised as the same breed of dog. The reason that I raise this is the fact that the American working Labradors (as far as I have seen), are of a different type to the 'typical' Labrador seen in Australia. The main difference is a much longer body, much lighter bone, much less spring of rib and a generally more athletic type of dog, and I am curious as to whether or not this is an issueof concern in the USA?

In regard to why we import working dogs from other countries, the answer is pretty much as Gareth has already stated. Our gene pool is limited due to our young history and isolation (for many reasons this has actually been a very positive limitation as with many breeds we have not have experienced many of the genetic issues apparent overseas and for me this is one reason for us not to import carte blanche as often the grass is not indeed greener) so we are looking to improve our stock. In regard to USA vs UK in Labradors, we have had excellent working dogs come in from both areas, both have been excellent for our type of trials and both will no doubt have a lasting impact on our future working dogs pedigrees.

In response to your comment that Australia no doubt has wonderful working dogs that we want to keep to ourselves I give my personal response - yes we do, our dogs are expected to perform at an extremely high level in both field trial (working native game out in the field, rabbit, quail) and retrieving trials (your field trials). In my uneducated opinion they are expected to do more than they are anywhere else that I have any knowledge of, and we are justly proud of them. Does this mean that they cannot be improved by imports? Of course not, what a wonderful small world it is!
Diane
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Re: American dogs

Postby Diane McCann » Thu 18 Oct 2012 7:27 pm

Hello Brian, it is nice to hear that you are so interested in different trialling methods and different dog breeding ideas and desirable traits. I, like Prue, am not a Labrador person (we both breed and trial German Shorthaired Pointers) but love working dogs of all persuasions.

As a side issue you may be interested to know that in Australia Retrieving Trials (I think called field trials in the USA) are not restricted to the retrieving breeds but are open to all of our gundogs so include the HPR breeds such as the GSP, GWP, Vizsla, English Pointer, Irish Setter, Brittany Spaniel, Weimaraner and even the Cocker Spaniel (apologies to the Cocker Spaniel people, it is just that it is a very rare occurrence).

One of the interesting topics of conversation often held around the campfire at Australian retrieving trials is the type and function conversation. What I mean by this is that to some of us the 'typical' appearance of the breed is very important and to some others it is only the working ability and performance that matters. This latter opinion has lead to many breeds in Australia become split with a 'show' type and a 'working' type that can in some instances hardly be recognised as the same breed of dog. The reason that I raise this is the fact that the American working Labradors (as far as I have seen), are of a different type to the 'typical' Labrador seen in Australia. The main difference is a much longer body, much lighter bone, much less spring of rib and a generally more athletic type of dog, and I am curious as to whether or not this is an issueof concern in the USA?

In regard to why we import working dogs from other countries, the answer is pretty much as Gareth has already stated. Our gene pool is limited due to our young history and isolation (for many reasons this has actually been a very positive limitation as with many breeds we have not have experienced many of the genetic issues apparent overseas and for me this is one reason for us not to import carte blanche as often the grass is not indeed greener) so we are looking to improve our stock. In regard to USA vs UK in Labradors, we have had excellent working dogs come in from both areas, both have been excellent for our type of trials and both will no doubt have a lasting impact on our future working dogs pedigrees.

In response to your comment that Australia no doubt has wonderful working dogs that we want to keep to ourselves I give my personal response - yes we do, our dogs are expected to perform at an extremely high level in both field trial (working native game out in the field, rabbit, quail) and retrieving trials (your field trials). In my uneducated opinion they are expected to do more than they are anywhere else that I have any knowledge of, and we are justly proud of them. Does this mean that they cannot be improved by imports? Of course not, what a wonderful small world it is!
Diane
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Re: American dogs

Postby Brian Tarver » Fri 19 Oct 2012 7:23 am

Mr.Tawton said I had great questions,WOW,I got even better answers!
Thank you both,in two posts I have a lot to process .
I had no idea that Australia had caught the attention of such great U.S.trainers,that tells me that they see great dogs and that you too are open minded. That is the only way advances in training and dogs can be developed. Here in the U.S. we are guilty of building basically 3 different forms of Labradors,show,a very nice hunting and hunt test dog,and the extreme field trial dog. At each end of the spectrum the show and the field trial dog being as far apart as you can get. My Vet used to joke that my dog could fetch a dime out of the bottom of a soda bottle with her long nose,and little head. We Americans are also very good at completely ruining breeds of dog,take the Cocker spaniel,untill I saw just what the British can do with a cocker I thought they were just a pet breed.
Although I have never been to your country(love to go someday) and being an outdoorsman,it does concern me that the state of hunting is in decline.
I do agree that the situation with the gene pool is small that is still a great opportunity to build on,being careful not copy the British in a stalemate or us being so extreme,quite possibly the best of both,the Australian Labrador. That would shake up the world here in the states,anyone ever export?

Mrs McCann,only the show people care about what there dogs look like here in the States,the field trialers want only performance and truly unbelievable marking,we can produce some really "goofy"looking dogs. I have been fortunate to have duck hunted with FC's and AFC's and one or two national champions,contrary to the belief of most hunt test people they make exceptional hunters.
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Re: American dogs

Postby Kerry Webster » Wed 31 Oct 2012 2:32 pm

Hello Brian and welcome to AWRC,
It was interesting to read in your post that field trial participants in the USA don't care about the look of their Labrador, desiring a great performance dog with exceptional marking ability, instead. I suppose you could say the same about the top end competitors in Australia in regards to their dogs too, regardless of the breed. We want a dog that performs in the field, but also a dog that is sound, has a great temperament, and hopefully resembles the type of breed it is. Achieving that desire to please and the drive required in the field, and still having a biddable, responsive dog, is the aim of all of us I believe, and most of us will continue to keep aiming for the "perfect" dog.

I have three Labradors, two of which are still trialing in Australia. These two are of pure American lines, going back to FT Ch & AFCH Trumarcs Zip Code, FT Ch & AFCH Volwoods Ruff and Reddy, and right back to NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal, NFC-FC San Joaquin Honcho, FC-AFC Water Gator Will and other great dogs, in their pedigrees. These two working dogs are not oversized, but certainly nothing like the show Labradors in our country. They have huge drive, but are controllable the majority of the time, and, are couch potatoes at home. I bred my female last year using a Show Champion sire, who had a great retrieving desire and also wonderful water attitude. I chose him for both these attributes and also to try and put more substance into the puppies. I think I achieved that with the resulting 7 pups. They are almost one year old now and it will be interesting to see how they develop. The third Labrador I own and have now retired, is by an American bred sire out of an Australian bred bitch. Interestingly, he has thrown to the larger, taller, type of Lab, but has a nice head and reasonable body shape.
I also have working Golden Retrievers, and as Dianne said in her post, the gene pool for this type of Golden is very limited here, therefore, use of UK and US semen has been necessary at times.

In regard to hunting in Australia, where I live in the West, hunting is not allowed at all, so we are probably in more of a dire situation in trying to keep our sport active than Victorians. Less people are coming into retrieving and sticking at it, so, regardless of how well we endeavour to improve the field type dog here, there is still only a limited market for pups that will be used for this purpose. Luckily, the majority of them are great pets too, so often they will go to family homes.

In regard to exporting from Australia, yes there have been exports to the US, but these have been show bred Labradors (to the best of my knowledge). With so many Labs available for the field in your own country, why would anyone go to the expense of buying and shipping a pup over from here ? I think the US people are missing out on some great lines from Australia, with very little health issues.

Regards,
Kerry
My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am.
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Re: American dogs

Postby Brian Tarver » Thu 01 Nov 2012 12:45 pm

Kerry
Great to hear from you on my post!
Some Americans will buy British labs just for the novelty and they strongly oppose the collar and think the U.K. dog is so much more tractable. That belief in hand for some reason they shy away from our competitions?
I am very ignorant about the Australian Labrador,but trying to learn,it occurs to me that you have probably have what they seek. Talented ,hard charging ,good looking,healthy and rare and unusual. I think the Aussie lab would really be welcomed by hunters and hunt test handlers,and even field trialers. Not to say that U.K. dogs don't have anything to offer,they are great in there own niche,just like our field trial dogs are. I fear that if that got to be popular it might jeopardize your blood lines ,breeding just to export,y'all seem to be doing pretty good down there all by yourselves.

I found this by accident on the Internet,you probably have read this ,but I found it very interesting,a lot of it was told to me years ago. Sorry I don't think Ed ever wrote part 3.

Honcho's story part 1
http://www.blacklabcash.blogspot.com/20 ... rt-.i.html

P.S. I bet after reading this you will find some of his traits are very familiar, NFC-AFC Otis of red fern raised many a puppy,he too was a gentle old man.
Can't go wrong with a Honcho dog!

Best in training
Brian Tarver
Something went wrong with this link,try Google. Honcho's story,part 1- man in black"cash"
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