RETRIEVING AUSTRALIA FORUM

I was in Vic last week. A couple off us were talking about having a judges guide to go along with the rules. Sort of a guide to implimenting the rules to get a more standardised approach across the country. eg is giving a "line" on marks acceptable or is this just indicating which game is to be retrieved. Judges in different states seem to have a different interpretation of this and other rules. Possibly an interpretive guide which could be developed with our next rule change would help.

gareth
your idea of a judges guide is an excellent one .As a competitor it is not unreasonable to expect consistancy. that doesnt mean that we are being judged by a robot ,but to clarify certain basics is a huge step in the right direction. I have always believed that we should have a national judges conference, maybe every 5 years after a national?

I think this a very reasonable suggestion.

As a W.A. competitor, and having travelled to Victoria, NSW and ACT for Nationals, I did have the occasion where locals said, "So and So doesn't like you putting your hand anywhere near the dogs head to send for a mark, as they consider it a line." Then, in watching some of the locals, the reverse was evident.

Personally, I believe that a line is where the hand is placed, and held, in the dogs line of sight towards the retrieve, then the dog is sent. I have often seen this on marks, and I consider it a blind.

I do not think, that the dog being positioned so its body is in the direction of the mark, then the hand used as a send control, to be lining.

Apart from the lining debate there are probably several judging issues that need to be pursued in this "guide", to achieve an equality throughout Australia.

Kerry

Well done Gareth, we need consistency of judges.
Maybe this should be a forum for a total rehash of the rules, what do you think people?

The ridiculous situation exists where we have to change our approach depending on who is judging.

Why would we need an interpretive guide when we have a set of rules to follow? The problem is that the rules are vague and judges create their own, or the rules are there but the judges still create their own. Where the rules are vague they should be amended.

On lining I believe that you have to give the "line" for 2-3 seconds so the dog knows which one to go for, especially where the lines are tight.

There are many things that should be changed.
eg:
Double Fall - why do judges allow a competitor to whistle his/her dog to stop prior to the second bird being released? All this shows is the control that the handler has over the dog, it does not test the dog of what will it do when the 2nd bird is released.

I would like to bring Gareths post to the top again, I think it is a very worthwhile suggestion. It certainly would go part way to resolving some of Maureens issue with her post on bending the rules. With the National coming up it is probably the ideal place to hold a judges convention to discuss rules interpretation and try and get some consistency. All states are represented there and then those that are present can take the results back to their home states.
Graemep

good one gareth, you have hit the nail on the head, such a guide is long overdue i reckon. when i was running my old lad in a/a it basically got to the stage where there were competitors asking the judge how he /she saw certain actions etc at just about every run - anything that alleviates this sort of confusion has to be a step in the right direction!
i can still recall one of our top handlers at a national a few years back having his head 'bitten off' by a judge for asking a a judge how he was going to view something! this should not happen.

gareth
what steps are needed to make your idea a reality?
graeme parkinson thought that the tasmanian national would be an ideal time to get a large percentage of the nations judges together and get the ball rolling
We could develop a judges corner on this website if you thought it was appropiate?
good luck it s a great idea

What a good idea for a judges' guide and hope it would extend to all stakes.

For instance in Queensland they have a guide that says in Restricted you should not retrieve the blind before the mark. In Victoria, in Novice judges have been known to ask the gallery to be quiet so the dogs can hear the splash as it is hard to see the bird! I know the emphasis has been on All Age (and always is unfortunately) but believe to keep people coming into the sport - a common standard is even more important at the lower levels. In Vic angle water entries are common with some judges in Novice - these are normally taught through handling - ie is Novice for Novice handlers and dogs or just for the AA people with young dogs! At a recent trial a brand new competitor was amazed that the novice dogs took commands so well - his question - why were they in Novice!

One could go on for ever but if each State cannot seem to get a common standard, how can we get it accross the country? Perhaps it needs to be top down and a meeting of the judges in Tasmania would be a good start. Or a sub-committee set up consisting of a nominated Championship judge from each state. With current methods of communication this could work quite well?

The judges' guide for Queensland judges is the outcome of a forum attended by our judges about once every 5 years - the latest one in February this year. Unfortunately I do not have it in electronic format, but if anyone on the list would like a copy faxed (6 pages) email me privately with a fax number.

Needless to say, the "guidelines" were not agreed unanimously! (and judges do not have to abide by them), and the ANKC and CCC (Qld) rules take precedence.

If there is to be a National Forum - allow plenty of time!

Cheers - Alan

Hi all,

I'm bumping Gareth's post to the top again. For everyone heading off to the National in Tassie - it would be a great place to discuss this.

Best of luck to all!
Kirsty

Alan
It is a real positive that Queensland hosted a state judges forum,even though not much agreement was reached. Gareth's idea is far reaching and very important to the development of our sport. yes kirsty, tasmania is an excellent place to get the ball rolling and the judges talking amongst themselves. Perhaps then in 2004 at the queensland national a national judges forum could take place.
JUDGES NEED TO BE TRASPARENT!!!
WE NEED TO KNOW HOW THEY SCORE AND WHAT THEY VALUE , THIS SHOULD BE PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE
maybe our senior judges can make something happen. Common Bob ,John,Noel,Wayne ,Alan ,Sam,Paul,Jack etc etc etc lets support gareth's great ininative

Here,here! Lets hope a judge looks at this thread before they go to Tasmania! Please include all stakes - not just AA.