Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

[Diane McCann]

Good idea Craig. I had to laugh at myself just now, I went to 'like' your comment - wrong forum!

[Kerrie Armstrong]

I am a fairly new handler and will be in the discussed position should I get three wins with my current dog. I agree with Diane and Craig's comments, however, the quality of the pass has not been considered. It seems to me that if you are the last dog standing, or the best of a low calibre of qualifiers, even with a low score you will more than likely be awarded a 1st place. Can something be done about this as well?

[Steve Bath]

Kerrie, as a Restricted judge, albeit quite inexperienced, I believe that rules 55 and 68 provide the mechanisms for a judge to withhold the awarding of any prize or award. My personal judging preference is to assess how each dog performs the test I have set for it in each run, and if it fails to work to my satisfaction, as stipulated in rule 68, turn the dog out of the Stake. I have difficulty seeing how as a judge I would withhold an award if a dog has completed each of the runs set to my satisfaction. To my knowledge there has never been an attempt to set a "minimum" score or other mechanism to further define the "sufficient merit" called up in rule 55. In my head, if a dog has worked to my satisfaction in each run, then they have shown sufficient merit. That said, I strongly agree with the chorus of opinion that a change needs to be made so that relatively inexperienced dogs, and in many cases handlers, can hone their skills further prior to entering the AA shark tank!

[Dodo Kelly]

Thankfully the debate of RRD to All Age has raised its head again. For so long we have wanted something to hold onto handlers in the sport.
All the ideas have merit, however what does the dog & handler do re: retrieving after they have achieved 10 passes or whatever?

I propose we create a new level of competition, for dogs after gaining their RRD title, called -- OPEN Section.

This section would be run in conjunction with Restricted Stakes but...
(1) They are NOT competing against the Restricted handlers.
(2) Same Judge, separate running sheet
(3) Run before or after the Restricted runs.
(4) They would be numbered in a different way i.e. "OPEN 12" & require to display their number to enable Judges & stewards to identify them as OPEN competitors.
(5) For Open the Judges would make a run more challenging i.e. extra or longer leg, change direction etc.
(6) At presentations the OPEN places are announced as per other runs, BUT 1st to 4th are given points i.e. 10 for 1st, 8 for 2nd, 6 for 3rd, 2 for 4th.

In future the handlers would refer to their dogs as "a 200 point (or whatever) Open dog"
Paperwork would be signed by the Judge on the day, to keep account of these accrued points.
Perhaps Gundog Clubs could present an "OPEN DOG AWARD" annually?

RATIONALE:
This concept is to enable dogs & handlers to continue to enjoy the sport they trained for when:
a. Dogs gained their RRD but handlers not willing, or able, to continue to All Age standard.
b. Dogs not up to the standard to run All Age but still need the trailing experience to improve their ability.
c. Older dogs ready to retire from All Age, Championships etc could participate in these lesser strenuous runs.
d. The handlers, by continuing to work these high standard dogs, would have so much to show/assist those other handlers running in RRD etc.

Note: The only other option is to run in Open section of RATG.
And other dog sport disciplines i.e. Obedience have Open class were any titled dog with CD & above is welcome to compete.

Dodo

[Kerrie Armstrong]

Hi Steve,
Thank you for your reply but I am not suggesting a point orientated cull. I have witnessed the last dog standing receive a !st place in RRD even though the retrieve and condition of the game were below standard. I myself have received 2 out of 3 1st places in novice when my dog was unruly between the pegs, ran the bank, disobeyed every command and did not present to hand. He did however retrieve with a high level of action and style so I believe this is why we placed 1st. I then entered him as non competitive a few more times and did not even qualify. This is very frustrating for a new handler to deal with as I still am not close to completing a RRD run with this dog.

Regards Kerrie.

[Gareth Tawton]

Hi all,

It seems to me just about everyone has a valid point. Might I suggest that although our various RAFTs are there to represent their own states put of view, we as handlers should also think on a national basis on a system that would work across the country not just in our own back yards on present day entry levels.

Having said that: Looking at the life span of the type of dog we are looking at. Generally they dont get out of Novice till about 3 years of age. In the current setup depending on the state and entry levels they take another 2 seasons to get thru restricted. The dog is about 5 and now forced into AA and the handler either battles on, leaves the sport or gets another dog.
If we allow dogs to continue along the Vic proposal they will be allowed to stay another 3 wins. I would suggest given it took 2 years for the first 3wins it is likely to take another 2 to get the next 3 wins. Particularly as we have now raised the restricted standard because other winning dogs will also remain in restricted.This same dog is now about 7 years and has won 6 restricted stakes, at a higher average standard, before being forced into AA. I would suggest if our judges maintain a reasonable standard in restricted then a dog that has won 6 restricted stakes no matter what state they compete in should be realistaclly capable of finishing ten all ages over the next 2 or 3 years. The dog is now 9 or 10 and not far off retirement. We have kept the competitor in the sport at a level that suits while at the same time pushing/encouraging them to advance and improve their dog. I would hope now they are ready for the next pup and the handler has experience at all levels of trialling.

All states struggle getting enough people willing to manage/judge/organise trials so the suggestion of another level seems carzy to me.
Rule 1 amongst other things reminds us this is a competition so I agree with Dianne lets keep it that way while at the same time encouraging people to strive to improve their dogs.

It is on the basis of the points above that I would say that although both options have merit, the Victorian proposal is the better of the two.

Regards,

Gareth

[Joe Law]

NSW members should note that the last official opportunity for them to make submissions for consideration closes next Friday, 31 May. The public meeting called by the NSW RAFT to discuss these submissions will be held next Monday, 3 June. The WGC proposal that has been the subject of discussion on this site has already been received by the NSW office. I feel sure that this discussion will be most helpful in assisting NSW RAFT to arrive at its final position to be forwarded to the ANKC office.
My understanding from information posted on this site is that Victoria will only be finalising its position at a public meeting on 19 June and until then we won't know what its final view will be.
Of course other State bodies are to be part of the review process and from the discussions so far on this site we have little or no idea of how they might be thinking or arranging their positions. We can only hope that by the time for the National RAFT delegates to meet next year and decide the final outcomes, that some of these valuable discussions will be remembered and considered.

[Peter Betteridge]

gareth your timeline is way way of for NSW the dogs that are coming out of restricted up here are incapable of making a fist of AA last weekend the winner of restricted on both days will become another fatality to our ridiculous rules/WE ARE LOSING TRIALLERS PERIOD!!!!!!
Even jack lynch who won novice on saturday didnt think his little bitch was ready for restricted and thus sadly we lost another entry
having judged a few novices lately i deduced that although we have some fine novice dogs not one of them is even remotely ready for restricted
and in restricted we have dogs winning that cannot run a line or even do an elementary blind
the rule change should be painfully obvious LET PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES we can ill afford to lose triallers allow people to move up permanently by placing in the stake above
i agree that we dont wont another stake but lets let people enjoy competing at the level they feel comfortable with
i am also against 10 completions to get an RRD i think it should remain at 3 wins

[Diane McCann]

and in restricted we have dogs winning that cannot run a line or even do an elementary blind

Hi Peter, how can this happen? If the dog cannot do these basic requirements how are they finishing restricted stakes let alone winning them?

Cheers

[Tony Rowland]

peter

I believe that judges need to only put through dogs that will stop and take casts, in my limited opinion.
The running of lines dosen't come in to it. The rule should be changed to make it two blinds - one more than 80m in length - to stop judges putting dogs through on pethetic blinds 20-30m (my experience) allowing the dog to fall over th bird while running around (test of control).
I have seen several dogs that can run a line, miss the blind not handle. I believe a second manditory blind would go a long way to taking the luck out of getting through to fast on shorter blinds.

The biggest problem i see is the massive inbalance in the training programs of novice dogs. Most novice handlers dont even think about handling or the first step towards it ( stop whistle, come in whistle, mini tee, warm short piles, ladders) until their dogs are one win away from restricted, then its too late. Until someone posts an australia friendly program and it's a sticky at the top of the training page this inbalance will fester.
I believe people will then stop thinking novice training is only about marking and steadiness. When they have a program to follow, as less that 1/3 of new handlers coming through follow any thing, outside there last trial mistakes.
How many competitors do you see standing on the line blowing whistler and yelling in novice with no results? After judging a large field at easter, I can tell you, most (if they dont pick up or miss mark) and that is my point .

tony

[Peter Betteridge]

what u say makes a lot of sense Tony. A restricted winner should in theory be able to make a reasonable fist of All Age. Currently in NSW this is very clearly not the case. Im not sure about 2 blinds but i agree in principal that we mustn't dumb down restricted and that restricted blinds should be in principal easy all age blinds
Like U i have been told by many novice handlers that i judged that they have been told that novice is a marking contest therefore it was unnecessary to teach their dogs to handle HELLO !!!!!
I agree that an australian friendly gentle training program would be an advantage Many restricted handlers have asked me if i would teach them how to run blinds and i am happy to do that maybe we need to have a few more training days and an on going program
i still believe that the single most important step in helping our sport flourish is to allow people to compete where they feel comfortable

[Trevor Stevens]

This is a great discussion and has covered a lot more than the original topic.
Judging from the posts it is evident that there is overwhelming support for us to allow handlers/dogs to stay in restricted longer. We need just to fine tune how.
Perhaps we also need to discuss judging standards (or maybe state RAFTS need to arrange some refresher courses for judges so they set and assess runs in a similar (acceptable) standard). I will leave it to someone else to start that topic!
Another thing that is evident from this discussion is that newcomers have little knowledge in training a dog to an acceptable standard. I know from my own experience that when I started out I was filled with enthusiasm for this sport but had no idea how to train a dog to run lines, stop, cast etc. I trained for novice because that was what the dog could do, and all that I knew. Experienced AA handlers will tell you that they train to heel, run lines, stop, and cast from the puppy stage. Training for marks is a relatively low priority. It sounds basic, but newbees don't know how to do it.
If we all took the responsibility to take a newbee under our wing and try to show them training techniques to help them progress, then I am sure many more would 'stick' with the sport.
The three day training program conducted by VGC early this year was largely structured around control work and training techniques. Many of these people had come out of RATG and had seen the basic ability in their dog and were keen to learn how to do more. The feedback that I received was overwhelmingly positive. Clubs need to do more of them.

[Guy Balasso]

Hi All,
Trevor thank you as your comments are so true
As I am new to all of this, and unfortunately on my own,
If I entered my GSP into a competition and won because I was the last dog standing, but not in being to a high standard as some of you people and your dogs, I would be very disappointed as I have done a great injustice to myself and my dog . Do we drop the standard, I should think not.
It is very hard to learn some of the things that are needed in the trials if you have no guidance. That is the reason we have obedience classes to train the handler into guiding the dog. The same goes for trialling. You need someone to tell you what mistakes you are doing. In the end it is the handler that makes the dog. .
The three training days that were held early in the year which I attended two was the best thing I ever done ,I learnt more on those two days than watching videos or reading books .They can’t tell you what you are doing wrong. The trainer on the day can.
So yes more training classes.Do we we pay for the service . If need be !!
Regards
Guy

[Jeff Griffiths]

Hi All
At the NSW public meeting last week there was strong support for a rule change to allow Restricted dogs/handlers to stay longer in Restricted if they wish after gaining an RRD. The Working Gundog Club proposal was modified to include provision for a Qualified Restricted Dog title. I will leave it to those who took notes to give greater detail. It would be great to have more comments on proposed Restricted rule changes and ideas from around Australia.

Comments from Peter and Trevor about training for Restricted handlers is very relevant. Often novice handlers get an NRD and don't really know where they are headed after that. The Working Gundog Club in NSW held a training day aimed at Restricted handlers earlier this year which was just fantastic. More of this or small group, or one on one training, would be very welcomed by those without the knowledge to train a dog to be successful at Restricted and All Age level.

Regards
Jeff Griffiths

[Elio Colasimone]

Hi all,

The key points have been covered by a number of people.

A solution may require a multi faceted approach.

FIRSTLY - Restricted is always a bit of a tricky one for judges to deal with. Do you go soft because of a particular field you are presented with and the fact that they are coming from single task exercises or do you aim for low level, almost introductory AA.

Possibly a few too many Restricted dogs are obtaining their 3 wins while being relatively under done.
We as judges may need to review the levels of degrees of difficulty of the Restricted tests we are setting while still sticking to our current rules –regardless of the size and quality of field presented - to help bridge that gap to All Age.
Perhaps INCREASING:- the proportion of runs where 3 items may be needed to be picked up, the proportion of runs where two blinds and a mark are required, distance of marks beyond the lengths typically encountered in Novice, the proportion of runs where blinds may have to be completed before marks at the appropriate degrees of separation, the distance of blinds etc.
Most Importantly- raising the bar re the thresh hold of acceptance of slipped commands etc. and eliminating dogs at appropriate and timely junctures instead of allowing young dogs a “free range” approach that is embedding bad habits and giving the handlers a false sense of where they fit along the continuum. In other words are we as judges making the tough decisions as necessary ?
A slowing down of progression would most certainly occur if the benchmark was middling to top end Restricted..

Secondly – this dramatic increase in demands for dog/handlers may still require extra preparation and exposure time.

It is unclear to me why RRD titled dogs could not continue in Restricted - non competitively- within guidelines... These dogs could run after the field - but would not be eligible for awards or places. This would not slow those who want to travel through more quickly. In fact some handlers slide into AA as soon as they are eligible regardless of the number of Restricted wins.
Clearly dogs which have won an All Age Stake, or been placed first or second in a Championship Stake, or been awarded an AARD title would be excluded. One would assume dogs in this group are already coping with AA.

This would allow some dogs/handlers to continue for as long as they wished in Restricted and move to AA when and if it suited them. As far as the clubs are concerned the extra entry money is more than welcome.. As a courtesy judges might offer critiques for this group as an addend.

Thirdly and most importantly - are we all going out of our way at times to help those around us that may be struggling to become a little bit more comfortable in AA?

In other words assisting them in thinking about and putting into practice structured, developmental training programs by mentoring, using small group training days, organised club training weekends etc.

Effective programs are designed to plant the seeds early in a dog’s life of all the bits and pieces used to cope with AA including multiple marks with memory, blinds before marks, lining, handling, control and concepts( double falls, two birds, double rise etc. etc. ). By early I mean anywhere between 6 and 18 months.

Everyone I’m sure has come to the realisation that the astute/experienced handlers are working on all of these things or have many of them partially or mostly in place - even as they are competing in Novice events !!
You can put money on it that by their second or third outing in Restricted – they generally have them fairly well in place.
Perhaps this would bolster the confidence and competiveness of many more to make that transition to AA and “have a go” and keep playing in the sport.

The rest is up to individuals and degree of commitment and the time and effort they want to invest to make it happen...
Cheers
Elio