Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

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Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Trevor Stevens » Thu 16 May 2013 3:07 pm

Hi all,
I thought that I would run the flag up on this issue again.
It is likely that Victoria will once again submit the proposal to allow dogs to gain their RRD title after three wins in Restricted, but to continue to compete at that level, if they wish, until they have had six wins.
Many of the issues have been debated previously - I first raised the suggestion in this forum in April 2009 and it was revived by Tony Rowland in October 2012.
This proposal should assist states that have trouble putting together a Restricted Stake due to low numbers of entries.
Trevor Stevens
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Gareth Tawton » Sat 18 May 2013 7:54 pm

Hi Trevor,
Hopefully this change will get up this time around. I think it would be nice to allow dogs that are not quite ready for the rigours of aa to keep trialling at a more appropriate level till they are moved onto aa.

Gareth
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Pam Lyons » Tue 21 May 2013 6:06 pm

As someone who has no ambition to be in AA I would really appreciate this move, Trevor. Sounds good to me - then people who are not ready can stay where they are more comfortable. (I will probably never get 3 restricted wins anyway but it would be nice to stay there).
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Mary Law » Tue 21 May 2013 8:38 pm

Trevor and Gareth,
At a meeting of our Working Gundog Club held in February, a rule change proposal to the eligibility conditions as they apply to a Restricted Stake in Retrieving Trials for Gundogs was agreed to by the Committee to be submitted to the NSW RAFT for inclusion in the current rule review process. Our proposal would support the Victorian one in its intent (that of allowing people to stay in Restricted longer) and, in fact, goes even somewhat further. It reads thus:

Amended Rule
(NSW) 38. Restricted Stake is a Stake confined to Gundogs that have not won Championship points in an All Age or Championship Stake, or been awarded an AARD title. At least one Blind Find Retrieve shall be included in a Restricted Stake. A Blind should preferably be picked up after, rather than before, a Mark Retrieve, Double Rise Retrieve or a Two-Bird Retrieve. Where a Blind is to be retrieved first, the angle of separation between the Blind and other items of game shall be at least 60 degrees.

You must understand that this is just the proposal from our Club to the NSW RAFT and there could well be other submissions from NSW for the RAFT to consider at its public meeting on 3rd June.

Regards,
Mary
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Trevor Stevens » Wed 22 May 2013 8:40 am

Hi Mary and thanks for your feedback.
The suggestion that I have proposed hasn't been through the Victorian approval process either.
Under your proposal would a dog still be awarded its RRD title after 3 wins?
There would need to be a consequential change to rule 107 which we have proposed as follows:
(b) The title of Restricted Retrieving Trial Dog (R.R.D.) may be awarded to those dogs that have won three (3) Restricted Stakes or an All Age Stake, or been placed first or second in a Championship Stake, or been awarded an AARD title.are
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Peter Betteridge » Wed 22 May 2013 10:17 am

i would like to endorse the Victorian rule change proposal
it is a step in the right direction
personally i dont think it goes far enough i would like to see 3 wins qualify for an RRD but leave competitors the choice about when they elevate to AA based on their ability to sucessful place in an AA trial thus rendering them ineligible for an further restricted events
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Mary Law » Wed 22 May 2013 11:17 am

Hi Trevor,
Yes, in the WGC proposal the RRD title would still be gained after 3 Restricted wins and/or by successfully completing 10 Restricted Stakes under 3 different judges.
And yes, consideration was also given to the flow on changes to Rule 107 that would then need to read:
Amended Rule
(NSW) 107. (a) The title of Novice Retrieving Trial Dog (N.R.D.) may be awarded to those dogs that are no longer eligible to compete in that Stake because of wins in that Stake or wins/placings in higher Stakes.


(b) The title of Restricted Retrieving Trial Dog (R.R.D.) may be awarded to those dogs that have won three (3) Restricted Stakes or completed ten (10) Restricted Stakes judged by at least three different judges.


(c) The title of All Age Retrieving Dog (A.A.R.D.) may be awarded to those dogs that have completed ten (10) All Age Stakes judged by at least three different Judges. Once a dog has been granted title of AARD it can only compete in All Age or Championship Stakes.

To Peter,
You were not at the WGC meeting in February but I would think the proposal we drafted then is very compatible with your view also.

To the Pam Lyons of the Retrieving world,
The aim behind the WGC proposal is to allow people, who having made a start in the game, to continue at a level and at a pace that is compatible with their own and their dogs ability and put a stop to the current eligibility rule which we feel drives many away from the sport.
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Peter Betteridge » Wed 22 May 2013 2:31 pm

you are right on the money Mary i couldn't agree more.it was tragic to see at our last trial the winner of Saturdays restricted turn around and go home because he would have had to compete in All Age and his dog wasn't even remotely ready.We can ill afford to lose triallers this way
the objection to this rule change seems to be that it is envisaged that some people will permanently stay in restricted and dominate the event thus discouraging others.
i see this as a completely invalid argument.Handlers and dogs that r heading for All Age will still get there but will probably appreciate the lift in standard that would be offered thus giving them the opportunity to elevate theirs dogs training level to the point where when they do finally compete in All Age they can make a reasonable fist of proceedings
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Kerry Webster » Thu 23 May 2013 7:18 pm

I agree that something has to be done to keep people and dogs in the sport, past restricted, and, novice. The only thing I can see as a problem with this proposal may be the 10 finishes required. Our restricted entries are not overly large (about 10) with most of those being in Novice as well. A good dog/handler may possibly win three restricted quite quickly and be elevated up to AA way before they are ready, or willing to go there. (Been there, done that). Others may consistently finish out of the placings for 5 or 6 trials, but still finish 3 runs, then get a couple of places, then win three in a row. That would have their qualifications putting them into AA, as they had their 10 finishes in the stake. Still not ready for the next level, but forced to go there anyway.

One way or another we have to change the format and whether this proposal is the right way remains to be seen. Not everyone wants to be in All Age, and not every dog is capable of being an All Age dog. For the sake of continuing the sport I think we have to rethink these issues and try to encourage new, and younger people, into retrieving, as the oldies are getting older (people I mean), and new fresh faces will be required to keep retrieving alive in Australia. Where will we be in 20 years time if this doesn't happen now ?
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Diane McCann » Thu 23 May 2013 9:50 pm

(b) The title of Restricted Retrieving Trial Dog (R.R.D.) may be awarded to those dogs that have won three (3) Restricted Stakes or completed ten (10) Restricted Stakes judged by at least three different judges.


Mary your clubs proposal sounds fine and as you say along similar lines to the Victorian proposal in regard to allowing dogs to remain in restricted longer, if I read it right your proposal is that they can remain in restricted until they gain their AARD or a championship point.

What I don't understand is the lowering of the required standard to gain the RRD, why do you want this title now available to dogs that simply finish 10 restricted stakes without being required to win 3?
Diane
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Paul Hamson » Fri 24 May 2013 7:29 am

Dianne
You are correct in that the rule change agreed upon by the Working Gundog Club is worded to allow dogs to remain competing in Restricted after they get their RRD providing that they haven't won any championship points or obtained an AARD.

The logic behind allowing you to gain an RRD via 3 wins or 10 completions was to ensure that people competing in restricted are not prevented long term from gaining an RRD by the continued presence or more accomplished competitors. The 10 wins under 3 judges is consistent with the AARD title which is obviously a higher level title than the RRD.

Obvious arguments against the rule include that it may reduced numbers in All Age. The current experience in NSW appears to be that those who want to compete All Age do so and those who don't leave the sport. The rule change is aimed at keeping people, who don't wish to compete in All Age, in the sport.

Another counter argument against the proposal is that you will end up with "trophy hunters" staying in Restricted. I personally don't believe this to be a valid argument as we all accept that dogs who have won Nationals and are Grand Retrieving Trial Champions should be allowed to continue competing in All Age. We don't exclude them because they might win more trophies. High level competitors are always going to chase the bigger prizes i.e. an RTCH, and Championship wins rather than stay in Restricted.

The proposal is reasonably consistent with obedience trialling in that you must leave Novice after you gain your CD, but can continue to compete in Open with Utility as an Option.

I personally believe that we need to agree on some rule change that allows people to have a more gradual transition from Restricted to All Age regardless of the details.

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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Tony Rowland » Fri 24 May 2013 5:44 pm

paul

I will say I have no problem with people staying in restricted but they should not compete against up and coming dogs.
There should be a seperate competion for them (for a slab or what ever they decide on) as it is up to the judge to set the standard not someone who wont move up to aa.
There have been several dogs with rt champion titles that have been trophy hunting in gundog working tests, which should be for new handlers and/or young dogs and is three to four steps below rt champions in the food chain.
A fair thing would be to allow them to compete in restricted until they complete an all age, this would allow them to cross enter giving two chops at the cherry if they go out at aa they can still compete (practice ) in restricted non competing with others in the same boat.
This allows people that dont want to run aa to stay in non competing restricted as long as they want and compete against others in the same boat.
The problem I see with the stepping up, is that people want to finish before they start in all divisions. If people start with realistic goals and were allowed to cross enter they would pick up 1 bird,2 birds,finish a run ,finish 2, then complete a trial they would go on and that from someone with a very average trainer with a minor breed that has been struggling through using these goals.

tony
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Peter Betteridge » Fri 24 May 2013 10:25 pm

right on the money paul very well articulated i couldnt agree more
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Diane McCann » Sat 25 May 2013 8:08 pm

The logic behind allowing you to gain an RRD via 3 wins or 10 completions was to ensure that people competing in restricted are not prevented long term from gaining an RRD by the continued presence or more accomplished competitors. The 10 wins under 3 judges is consistent with the AARD title which is obviously a higher level title than the RRD.


The proposal is reasonably consistent with obedience trialling in that you must leave Novice after you gain your CD, but can continue to compete in Open with Utility as an Option.


Thanks Paul, personally I do not agree with removing the need to win 3 restricted stakes to gain your RRD. I know of many dogs that would have finished 15 - 20 + Restricted stakes but their dogs work is not of adequate standard to gain an RRD and I would be disappointed to see a watering down of this title. I don't want to start a war but I do think that in Vic too many dogs have been allowed to finish restricted stakes when the quality of work was more in line with being pulled out.

You can argue that AARD is a higher title that does not require a dog to win an all age, however this is a new introduced title along the lines of the NQD (is that right?, cannot be bothered looking up the correct title) and dogs are still required to win to gain their NRD.

The second quote is the one that grates with me, sorry, we are not obedience and I do not think we should pander to those who want to remove the 'win' requirement. Restricted is just that, restricted not open to all dogs. You can compete in all age for as long as you like.

Yes we definitely need a united front on this proposal. Do you not feel that the Vic proposal of gaining your RRD the existing way with 3 wins but being able to remain competing for 3 more would not solve the issue of more accomplished dogs and handlers remaining in restricted for too long making it difficult for others to gain their title? After all they can only win 3 more and if they are that accomplished and keen enough to remain trialling then they are likely to move all age.

I am sure we will work it out! :)
Diane
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Re: Retrieving Trial Rule Reviews

Postby Craig Dyson » Sat 25 May 2013 9:28 pm

I would have to agree with Diane on this,I think the 3 wins to gain RRD and 6 wins or placing in an AA to graduate to AA would be the better option, Perhaps you could introduce a QRD (qualified restricted dog)
for dogs completing 10 restricted's similar to the AARD title, this would give the people wanting to stay in restricted something to aim at without lowering the RRD title requirement.

Craig
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