Double Falls

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Double Falls

Postby Guest » Sun 27 Apr 2003 6:06 pm

Hi All,

None of the books I have cover training for double falls. I was looking for some advice on how to start off with these and how to prevent a popping problem from developing due to the dog anticipating the second throw. The dog is doing two-birds and double rises fine.

Thanks in advance,
Kirsty :D
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 30 Apr 2003 9:28 am

Kirsty - very good question - I started teaching my dog this and she just stopped each time to look towards the thrower for the next bird so I gave up and concentrated on stopping her near a bird thrown and sending her back to a known 'blind' but of course you can't do too much of this either!
That is why I could stop her on that two bird at Easter. Look forward to hearing from someone else of a better way. Prue
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double fall training

Postby Guest » Mon 12 May 2003 7:54 pm

Kirsty,

Like most things I think double falls should be taught on the oval. Sit the dog and walk out 30 or so meters throw a mark so that the dog must run past you to retriever. As he is on the way throw the dble fall when the dogs is near you. throw it to land about 30 degrees of his original line. This way you have a chance to stop the dog from switching as everything will happen near you. Don't worry to much about popping as the dog is only looking for clarification as to which bird you want. As a judge I don't penalise for this on a double fall. The biggest issue is to have the dog understand not to swithc as in higher stakes judges put on runs to encourage switching hence popping in this situation can be an advantage.

I hope this makes sense.


Gareth
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Re: double fall training

Postby Pat Thorn » Tue 13 May 2003 6:48 am

Gareth wrote:The biggest issue is to have the dog understand not to swithc as in higher stakes judges put on runs to encourage switching hence popping in this situation can be an advantage.

Hi Gareth
What is popping? Is it where the dog props (stops) when he sees the double fall bird get thrown?

I think we need a jargon explanator.
Pat
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Double falls

Postby Kirsty Blair » Tue 13 May 2003 12:29 pm

Hi Gareth,

Thanks for your help. I've been giving that a go and he seems to be cottoning on okay. Would it be considered out of line to stop the dog with the whistle to assist the dog to mark the double fall in a trial? This would also help to prevent the switching problem. I assume, though, that most judges would give a dog who was stopped on the whistle less points than a dog that marked the double fall without assistance. Do you agree?

Thanks again,
Kirsty :D
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Postby Jason Ferris » Tue 13 May 2003 2:23 pm

I am teaching my first dog this stuff at the moment, which makes me very much the novice, but I thought I'd share the approach I'm using. I am training on the oval and concentrating on teaching the dog to "sit to flush" at the noise of the thrower. The drill I am using is to have the dog run a learned blind at about 100m (easier and more predictable than a mark), then sit on a whistle at the same time as I let the thrower off either on the way out (double fall) or way back (2 bird). After a while she started to associated the thrower noise with the sit whistle and I could stop whistling. It seems to be working (although didn't translate very well into the field when I tried it last weekend). Any thoughts from more experienced trainers? jf.
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Re: double fall training

Postby Kirsty Blair » Tue 13 May 2003 6:19 pm

Pat wrote:What is popping? Is it where the dog props (stops) when he sees the double fall bird get thrown?


Hi Pat,

Popping is the expression used to describe any time that the dog stops without command, usually looking for help from the handler. It can be a frustrating problem when it occurs constantly after the handler has given the dog a line. Ideally, the dog should run in the direction indicated by the handler until otherwise stopped or directed. Sometimes, though, as Gareth has said, popping can be a good thing because it allows the dog to accurately mark the fall of another bird without prior command from the handler. Personally, I wouldn't call stopping on a 2-bird or double fall "popping" in the pure sense because the dog has a different motive for stopping.

The problem I was having teaching my dog double falls was that he was "popping" BEFORE the second bird was even thrown. That is, instead of running out toward the first bird and then stopping as he saw the 2nd bird thrown he would run three steps from me and then pop, waiting to see if another bird (dummy) would be thrown. When I didn't throw the second dummy he would take another three steps and then pop again. All this popping and I'd only done the exercise twice! Very frustrating! :? I am happy for him to stop when he sees the bird thrown, as this allows him to mark it accurately - however, I'm not happy for him to stop JUST IN CASE a 2nd bird might, at some stage, be thrown. Nevertheless, he has been improving so there's hope...

Anyway, hope all my babbling has clarified "popping" for you.

Kirsty
P.S. I have to be careful when I'm typing "popping" as I've accidentally typed "pooping" instead a couple of times - and that's a whole different issue :wink:
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Re: double fall training

Postby Pat Thorn » Tue 13 May 2003 8:30 pm

goldy wrote:Popping is the expression ....


Hi Kirsty,

It certainly does explain it, as I had guessed, but I was not sure. It's an American term, isn't it?

Why do you think he popped on you like that, have you been doing a lot of calling him off the one you send him for?

Kirsty wrote:P.S. I have to be careful when I'm typing "popping" as I've accidentally typed "pooping" instead a couple of times - and that's a whole different issue :wink:

I certainly know what "pooping" is all about, pooping is when they crap all over you, especially when you are at a trial.:grin:
Pat
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Wed 14 May 2003 1:48 pm

Pat, while I cannot attest to the term's actualy origins, 'popping' (as quite distinct from 'pooping' :lol: ) has been widely used in Australia for quite a number of years now to describe the act of dogs stopping enroute to a retrieve due to insufficient momentum and/or confidence.

'Pooping' on the other hand, has been in general use for substantially longer than that to describe.....well, you know what!!! :wink:

Teresap
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Postby Pat Thorn » Wed 14 May 2003 2:00 pm

Hi Trees R

Funny I had never heard that term, I just must not have had my ears open, or took no notice when I did hear it. :wink:

I have heard propping but not popping, the only popping I know leaves a rather bad smell. :grin:
Pat
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Re: Double falls

Postby Pat Thorn » Sun 01 Jun 2003 8:33 am

goldy wrote:I assume, though, that most judges would give a dog who was stopped on the whistle less points than a dog that marked the double fall without assistance. Do you agree?

Some judges will not penalise the dog at all because it has obeyed the command to stop. I have seen "well known" handlers do this to optimise the points that the dog receives for this type of run.

There are at least 3 scenarios:
1. The dog that goes straight to the 1st of the double fall bird while acknowledging the "double fall" bird, either by hearing or by sight.

2. The dog that is whistled to a stop on the "double fall" bird before being controlled onto the 1st.

3. The dog that careers on to the "double fall" bird before being bought under control to get the 1st bird thrown.

In my book:
Scenario 1: should be scored the highest.

Scenario 2: should be scored the lowest since the dog has been stopped from showing the judge whether it could do the exercise or not. The dog should be severely penalised for this.

Scenario 3: should be docked points for going after the "double fall" bird.

This post probably belongs in "Bend the Rule (book)".
Pat
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double falls

Postby Annie Warner » Sun 01 Jun 2003 2:23 pm

i agree in principal with what you say Pat however thought you were a little harsh in point 2.
to stop the dog and draw it's attention to the 2nd bird tends to depend very much on the line out the dog has taken, and in fact at times has depended on the judges perception of where a dogs eyes are located!!
how would you then score a run where the dog has not acknowledged 2nd bird, goes straight to 1st bird and is then given a nice little hand signel to the 2nd bird.....this dog/handler have also not really shown the judge that they can handle the excersize as there was no temptation for the dog to retrieve the wrong bird.
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Re: double falls

Postby Pat Thorn » Sun 01 Jun 2003 2:45 pm

annie wrote:i agree in principal with what you say Pat however thought you were a little harsh in point 2.
to stop the dog and draw it's attention to the 2nd bird tends to depend very much on the line out the dog has taken, and in fact at times has depended on the judges perception of where a dogs eyes are located!!

The object is not to draw the attention of the dog to the 2nd bird by stopping him. The reason they stop their dogs, in my opinion, is to stop the dog in his excitement in going for the 2nd bird.
When the dog has been stopped he loses hs excitement to go for the 2nd bird. He is then very easily sent for the first bird.
Two things are a problem here.
First to stop the dog from getting the 2nd bird first.
Secondly, to control the dog to the first bird from the stopped position. This is 2 commands that should be penalised severely because they have not been subjected to the "exercise" of a double fall.
annie wrote:how would you then score a run where the dog has not acknowledged 2nd bird, goes straight to 1st bird and is then given a nice little hand signel to the 2nd bird.....this dog/handler have also not really shown the judge that they can handle the excersize as there was no temptation for the dog to retrieve the wrong bird.

Quite true, this is a difficult one. However, I believe that the dog should be tested on the double fall, which means that if the dog needs a line to the 2nd bird, the judge should stop the run for that dog there and retest the dog after 2 more dogs have been through. Alternatively substantial points should be deducted for the run as the dog has not done the exercise correctly.
One must be fair to the competitors who got it right.

Again, this is just my opinion.
Pat
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Re: double falls

Postby Kirsty Blair » Sun 01 Jun 2003 4:26 pm

I don't have a problem with handler stopping his dog in order to ensure the dog gets a good look at the double fall bird. As Annie said, where the double fall is thrown depends on where the judge believes the dogs eyes are. My job as a handler is to maximise the dog's ability to view all marks clearly - whether that is making sure he is focussing in the correct direction at the firing point or stopping him when the two bird or double fall is thrown so that he can mark them effectively. If the dog is going to switch birds he will do so just as readily if he is stopped with the whistle. Trust me, I own a dog who switches and it makes no difference.

To me, if I was hunting, I would want to make sure I get all of my birds at the end of the day. Not stopping the dog to view the double fall and then hoping he sees it anyway is like playing the pokies. Maybe he will see it but then maybe he won't. And then you've turned what should be a clear mark into a blind. That's just silly. :?

Of course, if I was judging, I would score a dog maximum points if he wasn't stopped to view the double fall but nailed it anyway when sent. But I would also penalise a handler heavily if the dog wasn't stopped and then had to be handled to the double fall when sent. I would score the dog who was stopped with the whistle somewhere in the middle.

Pat wrote:One must be fair to the competitors who got it right.


Again, I would say that a "competitor gets it right" when he maximises his dog's opportunity to mark the fall. Saying nothing and hoping for the best has certainly won many a trial but its also given many a dog and handler an early ride home.

Goldy :D
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Re: double falls

Postby Pat Thorn » Sun 01 Jun 2003 5:29 pm

goldy wrote:I don't have a problem with handler stopping his dog in order to ensure the dog gets a good look at the double fall bird.
As Annie said, where the double fall is thrown depends on where the judge believes the dogs eyes are. Not stopping the dog to view the double fall and then hoping he sees it anyway is like playing the pokies. Maybe he will see it but then maybe he won't. And then you've turned what should be a clear mark into a blind. That's just silly. :?

It's not a matter of ensuring a dog getting a good look at the flight of the double fall. When a judge sets the run up he maximizes the flight of the bird so that the dog gets a good sight of the bird. The point I made is that handlers who stop their dog before it goes for the 2nd bird are not completing the intended test of the double fall, and that is, will the dog go for the 2nd bird first, it cannot if it is stopped.


goldy wrote:My job as a handler is to maximise the dog's ability to view all marks clearly - whether that is making sure he is focussing in the correct direction at the firing point or stopping him when the two bird or double fall is thrown so that he can mark them effectively. If the dog is going to switch birds he will do so just as readily if he is stopped with the whistle. Trust me, I own a dog who switches and it makes no difference.

Again the point I make is that if you stop the dog, for a double fall or two bird, you are not testing the dog for that exercise. As for making no difference if the dog switches, I was talking about dogs who are in control.

goldy wrote:To me, if I was hunting, I would want to make sure I get all of my birds at the end of the day.

It's not hunting.

goldy wrote:Of course, if I was judging, I would score a dog maximum points if he wasn't stopped to view the double fall but nailed it anyway when sent.

This is my whole point.

goldy wrote:But I would also penalise a handler heavily if the dog wasn't stopped and then had to be handled to the double fall when sent. I would score the dog who was stopped with the whistle somewhere in the middle.
Again, I would say that a "competitor gets it right" when he maximises his dog's opportunity to mark the fall. Saying nothing and hoping for the best has certainly won many a trial but its also given many a dog and handler an early ride home.

Why stop the dog from doing the test by whistling the dog to stop. You see, you call it giving the dog a good sight (which the judge has already ensured) as opposed to what I say, which is not letting the dog do the test (not going to get the 2nd bird first).

I guess we just agree to disagree.
Pat
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