Can Retrieving survive?

For discussion on anything retrieving related - trialing, training equipment, news, etc.

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Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Steve Bath » Tue 14 Oct 2014 11:48 am

I, together with other interested users of this site no doubt, have been following the recent thread regarding the ACT Championship trial. Rather than comment at all on that specific event, I wish to comment on what I perceive to be the continual decline of interest and actual participation in retrieving trials. In my opinion the sport is attracting lower than sustainable numbers in all levels in NSW and it would appear that the situation is similar in several other States. Whilst I have seen posts previously on this forum that have aimed to generate discussion on why retrieving as a discipline of dog sport is not thriving, it would seem to me that unless we open our minds to what the major impediments are to attracting new participants, and apply remedies, this wonderful pursuit will not survive.

Our numbers of competitors are at historically low levels despite disciplines such as agility attracting larger and larger fields. There are vast numbers of dog enthusiasts in our communities willing to invest their time, effort and money in competitive canine pursuits. Why is it that so few of these individuals see retrieving trials as a viable outlet for their efforts?

The answer to this is complex and varied, but in my opinion the requirement to handle real firearms and real items of game are massive turn offs to the large majority of dog sport enthusiasts. Both these elements are out of step with modern societal expectations in 2014. The truth is that despite there being strong resistance for any movement on either firearms or game amongst the "long established" triallers, these two factors deter large numbers from even taking up our sport at the Novice level. Surely the sensible thing would be to consider less confronting options, even at the entry level, and alter the rules to suit. But such a strategy has received no real support from those at the helm, preferring instead to stay directly on course to what I fear will be extinction. I have heard many triallers tell me that they believe the requirement to posess a shooter's licence is a good thing as it supposedly demonstrates one's commitment to the pursuit. My view is that we can ill afford such tests of commitment before we even have the person properly engaged.

To have a significant number of committed, successful participants regularly entering and competing in Championship Stakes requires a steady influx of new participants who over time progress to the more elite levels. This highly specialised activity, with it's highly specialised training equipment and techniques will have many decide along the way that the elite level is not for them. This is even more reason to put every effort into attracting new participants, fully expecting the attrition rate to be high.

I very much enjoy attending and competing in retrieving trials, and I passionately hope that they continue and flourish into the future. My fear is that we are not reacting in any meaningful way to what is occurring before our own eyes, and we may not before it is all simply academic, and all that remains is the memory of a wonderful activity.
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Clinton Bodilly » Tue 14 Oct 2014 1:27 pm

I would like to start off by saying I think if this sport is to survive like many other sports people need to band together for the greater good of that sport and not to pick at the bones. I have only just recently joined this wonderful sport and have met some great people who are willing to help answer questions when asked. I have seen some fantastic dog work in which I dream emulate myself one day.

I think that a very good way to attract and keep people in the sport is to have numerous training days to demonstrate how to get to the level people wish to pursue and an introduction to the wonderful sport. I think a great way as well is through the training section of this forum, time and time again people are begging for help via the forum and only a select few continue to answer the question, concerns and queries of these people. I know there is so much information in people’s heads out there it would be great to see this transpire to the forum. I think it would be very helpful if someone could offer up some Australianised training ways/ program to do things too.

I believe RATG trials are a very good warm up for people to enter the sport who do not wish/ are not comfortable to use firearms and handle game. People then become comfortable with running their dogs at the line and the sport in generally and can migrate over to retrieving trials should they wish. Is the answer to people who do not wish to handle firearms or game to add another level in the RATG? Maybe run RATG in conjunction with the retrieving trials to give them a better understanding of the retrieving trials.
Finally I think it would be a very sad day when we could not even slightly emulate a day’s hunting by removing the game and firearm requirements from the retrieving trials.
Just some thoughts.

PS. Well done to the Victorian Gundog Club for your training days, so helpful.

Clinton
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Mark Davis » Tue 14 Oct 2014 4:37 pm

Cheer up fellas, I actually believe the future of our great sport is going to be fine, at least in some states. Steve you mention guns and birds as being a put off to potential triallers. I also firmly believe that the highly specialized training equipment you speak of is also part of the problem. Especially in NSW & ACT where it is illegal to own certain types of specialized training equipment and there are very serious penalties that could apply.
My own specialized training equipment consists of 20 dummies.
Clinton the VGC is running training days at the moment and good on them, I remember not that long age the Golden retriever club running regular training days as did the CHWGC, but sometimes committees need a break.
The good news for newcomers in Victoria is that next year the CHWGC will be also running regular training days and focusing on how to be successful at all levels using positive training methods.
Having been around as long as I have and witnessed other disturbances in our sport, I can reassure you that Retrieving trials in their current form will be around for a long time to come, hell I expect to be competing for at least another thirty years :P
Mark Davis
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Dale Marshall » Tue 14 Oct 2014 8:14 pm

Everything travels in cycles, some states like Victoria are strong and have good numbers, having been to a few Nationals since the mid 2000,s entries have varied between 40+ to early 50,s , so nothing has changed a real lot at the top level.
Biggest issue is the states with lower numbers in Novice, Restricted are getting through to the next level possibly quicker than they should but they are judged on the concepts and must pass to an acceptable level, maybe a minimum points score needs to be achieved before being awarded a win. Cost involved with competing is expensive, not the entry fee but the cost of travel, accommodation etc, I live in Tas, but the closest trial this year was 120+km each way! when you run two dogs it is two days away from home, so all cost and time. This year we have 14 entries for our State Champs which is up there with most states, Encouraging people to come along and have a look, experience the friendship and banter, leave the politics at home, we don't have to like each other but being polite Is a standard requisite. Having raced motorcycles at a high level, to be honest most people hated me when I raced, did I care, not likely. When the race was over I would have a chat and beer with anyone, dog trialling is no difference, people take it very seriously and want to win, they get a little short when things go bad, give them a little time and most calm down.
So to wrap it up, encourage a friend , a duck shooter, a hunter, anyone that loves working dogs to have a go.
Most people remember the dog that did the great work, the fantastic blind, the triple mark.
All about the love of dogs.
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Paul Littlejohn » Tue 14 Oct 2014 9:38 pm

As a trialler, I’ve had nearly 30 years of wonderful competition and forged some lifelong friendships with both people and dogs. I found the sport because I was a duck hunter that enjoyed working my dogs. I still duck hunt and feel sorry for those persons in Queensland who do not have that ability, the only State in Australia that can’t hunt ducks.
I believe that while ever there is the chance to use my dogs, I will trial, but I’m governed by Laws and Rules in everything I do. I’m always controlled by ethical standard commissions and persons looking over my shoulder. Unfortunately over the years, rules have been ignored and bent and some new enthusiasts I’ve introduced to this wonderful sport have become disillusioned by constant rule interpretations. I agree we need to work as a unit for the better of the sport, but within the Law and Rules as they currently stand or we need to look at changing the Law and/or Rules.
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Peter Betteridge » Wed 15 Oct 2014 7:46 am

Steve Bath wrote:I,

The answer to this is complex and varied, but in my opinion the requirement to handle real firearms and real items of game are massive turn offs to the large majority of dog sport enthusiasts. Both these elements are out of step with modern societal expectations in 2014. The truth is that despite there being strong resistance for any movement on either firearms or game amongst the "long established" triallers, these two factors deter large numbers from even taking up our sport at the Novice level. Surely the sensible thing would be to consider less confronting options, even at the entry level, and alter the rules to suit. But such a strategy has received no real support from those at the helm, preferring instead to stay directly on course to what I fear will be extinction. I have heard many triallers tell me that they believe the requirement to posess a shooter's licence is a good thing as it supposedly demonstrates one's commitment to the pursuit. my view is that we can ill afford such tests of commitment before we even have the person properly engaged.
.

BINGO steve u have hit the nail on the head
get rid of guns and use artificial game for novice and RATG with restricted and all age optional
the recent rule chamge now allows 5 novice wins and whilst it is better it doesnt go far enough lets allow people to compete where they feel comfortable and given some of the comments on the ACT thread from all age handlers with very negative agendas who would wont to compete in all age anyway
thank goodness for Prue and greg and a bit of common sense
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby josh wells » Wed 15 Oct 2014 8:23 am

G'day,

At thirty one years of age I would consider myself as one of the younger brigade in the retrieving trial world. When I first got into the sport I was new to hunting and working dogs, I see retrieving trials as one of the best ways of helping me and my dog with my shooting / hunting. Steve Hall once said to me on a recent trip to Victoria" Josh don't worry about winning trophies or prizes, just enjoy working with your dog and anything that comes after that is a bonus". I enjoy my trials and learning new things and I see things such as the firearm as a tool just like a carpenter and his hammer,we just need to promote this great sport in the best way possible and encourage anyone that shows an interest. After all this sport in based on simulated hunting.

Cheers Josh
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Michael Kontou » Wed 15 Oct 2014 1:18 pm

Josh,

As a younger fella (ripe old age of 28) who wants to get into trialing I can echo your post. I am a hunter, however, what better way than to introduce people into the highest class of hunting (hunting with dogs) than retrieving trials?

Cheers,

Mike
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Steve Grainger » Wed 15 Oct 2014 1:57 pm

I too believe Steve hit the nail on the head on the use of guns and game being a major turn off for a lot of new people to retrieving. In saying that I also believe there are other issues like time and costs involved as there can be long distances to travel and accommodation to consider not like other dog sports where it’s just a quick drive to the local dog club to compete. All of this is to us with the passion for this sport is time and money well spent but for new people it does take a toll.
That’s where RATG comes in as good starting point for new people as it usually is held locally so eliminating some of the cost involved with travel and accommodation. There is no gun and the use of dummies instead of game would be more acceptable to some new people who could be eased into accepting game eventually.
People who know me know that I promote this sport at every opportunity I get and there isn’t a new member with a gundog to my obedience club that escapes my enthusiasm for retrieving. But what I have noticed over the last couple of years is the change in society’s attitude towards doing anything that may require a bit of effort. Our obedience club hold gundog training every two weeks after normal classes to try and encourage people to get involved with their dogs. At first the handlers are keen and get delight in seeing their dogs enjoy themselves, but after a few weeks they either don’t come anymore or if they do it is obvious that they aren’t doing any training at home as their dogs haven’t improved from day one.
So how do we get more people involved in retrieving? We keep trying.
I know that there are people in all the states that are doing the same as me and desperately trying to promote retrieving to anyone who will listen. Unfortunately that has not always been the case, well not here in NSW at least as I found when I first tried to find out about it about 25 years ago. As a hunter hunting over a GSP at that time I would hear about trials but no matter whom I asked at gun clubs, other hunters and even gundog breeders I could not get any information on how to get involved, it was like trying to break into a secret society. It wasn’t until about 13 years or so ago when I was competing with my Labrador in the State Obedience trials at Erskine Park that I had the luck to catch up with a gentleman training his Labradors for gundog at the dam and he was only too happy to steer me in the right direction. This is the attitude we all should display “only too happy to steer people in the right direction” What I have found is that the general public are fascinated with what we do so be proud and tell all who will listen on how well your dog works and especially how they enjoy what they were bred to do, better still give them a little demonstration it blows most people away. What would be great if you inspire someone to get a gundog and give it ago themselves, I know from experience that can and does happen.
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Michael Kontou » Wed 15 Oct 2014 4:02 pm

Steve Grainger wrote:This is the attitude we all should display “only too happy to steer people in the right direction” What I have found is that the general public are fascinated with what we do so be proud and tell all who will listen on how well your dog works and especially how they enjoy what they were bred to do, better still give them a little demonstration it blows most people away. What would be great if you inspire someone to get a gundog and give it ago themselves, I know from experience that can and does happen.


I could not agree with you more, my hunting partner and I own the first gun dogs in our hunting group (brother, dad and a group of other friends) and all of them are so interested and impressed at what can be achieved. Even non-hunters when I demo what my GSP can do are indeed fascinated... hell, a friend even bought a GSP from the same breeder afterwards!
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby John Lawton » Wed 15 Oct 2014 11:20 pm

Having been in the trialing fraternity since 1979 I have seen a lot of people come and go. people come in with great ideas stay around a short time and then you don't see them any more.In our field of sport, which is a thinking persons activity, we must remember our RULE ONE, TWO and THREE in our rule book.

I firmly believe we are presently targeting the wrong area to encourage persons to become involved in our sport, Here I must mention the people with the alphabet dogs, I have seen these people come in with all the razzmatazz expect us to alter the rules for their just purposes, gain a small title then leave to challenge another type of dog activity. Fly ball, dancing with dogs etc.

Running our small business 'Specialized Dog Accessories' we meet a vast array of young adults both male and female very interested in training their gundogs for retrieving ducks, rabbits and quail. The age group varies between say twenty two to thirty eight, normally married with one or two children. These people are very keen to obtain information on how to train their dogs. I normally spend about an hour each time informing them on the basics of training. The question is then asked 'where can I go to get instructions on training their dogs? you know the only thing I can tell them is to join WAGGA. They hold a regular Sunday morning training day, once a month from 9am to 12pm with a sausage sizzle afterwards. This has been a very successful activity for about eight years. They run their own retrieving trials (with a modified version of our rule book) with titles gained, and hold a National with a Winchester Shotgun as first prize!

I must mention at this time: We are our own worst enemy, by saying that, I mean with a new person querying to join a club, our question is "Have you a pedigree dog? if not we don't want to help you !!!.
Their are many people obtaining their first gundog (quite innocently) being a non pedigree dog with the idea to go hunting with it. It appears that we don't want to know these future trailers? hence they go to WAGGA.
How many of us have been in the same senerio? How many trailers would we have if we were to obtain these people?
I do supply a large gun shop 'Gunco" on the western side of Melbourne with our training equipment, supplying them now on a regular basis.Took a supply in on Tuesday says he regularly sends his clients as well as himself to WAGGA.

A few thoughts I would like to put forward:
1/ Us the trialing fraternity affiliate with Field & Game (Which has been a Major Sponsor for our national competitions). In discussions with field and game they mention it is feasible to instigate a Gundog Branch within Field & Game.
2/ Field & Game affiliate with the World body for the registration of dogs so our pedigrees and titles remain the same.
3/ Allow newcomers with non pedigree Gun dogs to participate within our sport, possibly being awarded a similar but different title for being placed within the trial. The second dog by the same handler to be pedigree.
4/ Have a monthly training day similar to WAGGA, where experienced trailers attend a training day on a rotating twelve monthly basis. If we don't put the effort in we wont reap the rewards.
5/ In Victoria there is an option to have about three training camps Ie: west of Melbourne , Gippsland, South Eastern and Maybe North central.These camps would attract a large number of future trialers.
6/ As mentioned before but fell on deaf ears that the gundog clubs on a two day weekend hold a training day on the trial site say Saturday and a full trial on the Sunday. fees to be paid for the training day similar to a standard trial.
7/ instigate a web page with short Australian videos on basic training and to promote our sport
8/ Have a face book page with dates and locations of our trials.

Gun Clubs around the country have quite a few handlers with dogs calling out for a training regimen and we are missing all these opportunities.
Field & Game have had many enquirers coming through their branches but presently are getting a blank response. I have personally sent F & G dates for our trials, locations and contact persons to promote our sport.
These young adults have no issue with handling guns or game, so they are the ideal persons we should inspire to join our sport.

I mean no malice with these comments to anyone, but these are my observations over a few years and it saddens me to think we are in decline.
We must look at the bigger picture and look outside the square.....
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Kate Eltringham » Thu 16 Oct 2014 6:35 am

John,

I commend you for your insightful comments regarding garnering new enthusiasts for our sport. With your access to so many people through your business it is interesting to read where dog enthusiasts are coming from and what they are looking for from their dogs.

Central Highlands Working Gundog Club are already taking on board some of your ideas and have created a Facebook page, Working Gundogs Australia, for Gundog enthusiasts to share experiences. With the advent of social media this seems to be one of the best ways to create exposure to our sport.

We are holding a training weekend in June 2015 which will consist of training on Saturday for both registered and unregisterd Gundogs. Sunday will have the club running both a Novice and Open RATG along with the Field & Game Shield for unregistered Gundogs. Additional weekends will be organised throughout the year and will be advised both through this forum and the Fb page.

Kate
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Peter Butterfield » Thu 16 Oct 2014 8:05 am

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... of course, you heard it here first on RA. Everything you wanted to know about Retrieving in Australia, and more.

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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Trevor Stevens » Thu 16 Oct 2014 12:24 pm

Hi John
You have put forward some interesting points.
I can't comment about the efforts that are taking place in other States but here are some of the things happening in Victoria.
Through RAFT Victoria we already have a close working relationship with FGA. A section of its website includes details on training, trial dates, pictures, and contact details. Here is the link:
http://www.fga.net.au/dog-training-retr ... /i1082718/
Non pedigree dogs participate in our sport through RATG which uses dummies (mainly) and pigeons and no firearm is used. Also it is possible to start out in Retrieving Trials with someone shooting for you.
CHWGC used to run tests for non pedigree dogs mainly for FGA members in conjunction with one of its trials, but I understand they drew only a small number of participants and are no longer going.
Irregular training days are held at KCC park and they mainly attract newbees. Some of these people have gone on to RATG and Retrieving Trials.
RAFT Victoria has had a facebook page for over a year and details of the training days are posted on that page. (Membership is for Victorians). Why don't you start a similar training group in the western suburbs using the same process.
When I am approached by someone about dogs training I don't send them off to another organization. I recommend they join the facebook page. I tell them about the training days, and I try to put them in contact with someone near where they live who can act as a training mentor and buddy. If they have a pure bred dog I put them in touch with the relevant club.
A number triallers, including me, are on face book pages such as "Bird Dogs Australia" and we take every opportunity to promote our sport. I have already posted on the the BDA facebook page about the VGC training day in November.
The Gippsland guys have held at least three training days for FGA members in that area since the National was held there and they have been well attended and quite successful.
It takes a multifaceted approach to raise the awareness about out sport. No one thing is going to bring people into it, and we may not be doing all the things that you want John, but some of us are trying pretty hard.
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Re: Can Retrieving survive?

Postby Kerrie Armstrong » Thu 16 Oct 2014 7:09 pm

Hi All,
I too am a relative newbie and have been involved in many training days over the last 3 years. It seems to me that many people say "my dog can do that" or "this looks like fun" and they sign up. This is a good thing because occasionally we get 1 or 2 new people enter our sport and stay. However, the vast majority loose enthusiasm very quickly and leave.
In NSW we don't have a duck shooting season so the majority of our shooters don't need their 'vermin' retrieved to hand by a dog, which means we don't have that avenue of gun friendly/bird handling interested people to entice. I hear so often that the handlers we do get into RATG say that their dog won't pick up a bird or they themselves won't handle a bird or the gun, so the majority will stay in RATG and only enter with bumpers. I don't know what the answer is to keep new people joining our sport, but I know that part of the attraction for me is firing over my dog and re-enacting bringing home 'dinner'.
We have organised yet another training program outside of Sydney as well as Peter's ongoing program being held in western Sydney but I am becoming doubtful that this is what will bring new people to our sport, certainly not the numbers that we need. Even RATG is struggling to hold Novice stakes as the majority of stayers have moved up to Open.
I hope that that we do have a future with retrieving what ever form it takes but my preference is for gun and game.
Kerrie Armstrong
 
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