Force Fetching

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Force Fetching

Postby Guest » Sat 28 Jun 2003 1:39 pm

After being exposed to the large amount of info on the internet, especially from the USA. The topic of force fetching seems to be a natural training progression. Yet in Australia the term is rarely mentioned, I am keen to know if any local trainers have successfully used Force Fetching, or is force fetching not looked upon favourably.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » Wed 02 Jul 2003 8:33 am

32 hits and no replies.

It may very well be a training progression.
It may very well be a way to win trials.

It may also be the start of the decline in natural ability in our dogs.

We don't have to force fetch so why start.
To win a trial against someone that doesn't Force fetch?
That is only a short term advantage until everyone is doing it.

Our trials were started as a way to test the working ability of our
retrievers. Why do we need to use a method that was designed to make non retrieving breeds retrieve.

You can win the trials but are you damaging the retrieving breeds in the
long term?
Although many will try to answer that question the reality is history will have to give us the answer.
It may be to late by then.
Guest
 

Force Fetching

Postby Kirsty Blair » Wed 02 Jul 2003 10:44 am

Hi Guest,

I force fetched my golden retriever. Not because he didn't have natural retrieving ability (he's a crazy retriever!) but because I wanted to add consistency and quality to his retrieves. It also helps hand-overs because, if its done properly, you formally teach the "hold" and the "give".

My goldy used to complete his retrieves well but would drop wet birds when he got out of the water and would occasionally drop the bird at my feet if it was a bit "used" (like on the last run when the same bird has been retrieved by a number of dogs on each of the previous runs).

Also, when training, his retrieves with dummies were abysmal. He would drop them three or four times on the way back and then drop the dummy at my feet before I asked for the hand-over. It made effective training almost impossible. Also, he would decide that dummies were boring anyway and they weren't worth picking up.

Force fetching went a long way to fixing all of these problems.

Personally, I found the decision to undertake force fetching extremely difficult as I'm generally a soft person. The idea of inflicting an ear pinch on the dog as a matter of course when the dog didn't initially know what you want was, for me, horrifying. It was very difficult to begin with and I still don't enjoy the thought of it. :(

With regard to the reply from the second "guest" I have to say a number of things;

Firstly, its not uncommon on this site to see a number of hits on a thread with no replies. I don't think most people are afraid of the topic - perhaps they're just busy or whatever. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe some people don't like putting their opinions in writing. There's alot of topics on this site that I thought would have had hundreds of replies but don't. Then again, maybe one person's reading the same post 100 times.. :wink:

Secondly, you say that a possible reason for force fetching is to win a trial against someone who isn't. When I train my dog I train for perfection - I've never reached perfection (just ask anyone in NSW about my goldy!) but I certainly train for it. My aim is to take my dog to a trial and have him perform everything I've trained him to do the best he possibly can. For me anyway, this isn't about beating someone else. After all, if, for example, they've done better training on channel swims than me then I'd expect their dog to outperform mine in this area. And at the end of the day, some trainers are better than others and some dogs are better than others - regardless of how much or what type of training they do.

Force fetching is just one of many tools that trainers use in the quest for the perfect retriever. I don't think it symbolises the downfall of natural ability just an increase in our demands from our dogs. If we were at the point, as they are in the US, of training Force To Piles with the electric collar to simulate style, eagerness and action in our dogs THEN maybe we should take a look at ourselves...

Kirsty
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Postby Guest » Wed 02 Jul 2003 12:16 pm

Also, when training, his retrieves with dummies were abysmal. He would drop them three or four times on the way back and then drop the dummy at my feet before I asked for the hand-over. It made effective training almost impossible. Also, he would decide that dummies were boring anyway and they weren't worth picking up.

Force fetching went a long way to fixing all of these problems.


Force fetching is just one of many tools that trainers use in the quest for the perfect retriever. I don't think it symbolises the downfall of natural ability just an increase in our demands from our dogs. If we were at the point, as they are in the US, of training Force To Piles with the electric collar to simulate style, eagerness and action in our dogs THEN maybe we should take a look at ourselves...

You don't need to FF to have a reliable delivery but I guess if you know no other way.
Again I am not sure I would want to breed from a dog that lacked natural retrieving desire and needed FF to fix this problem.
I have no problem with people running these dogs it's the future of retrieving breeds that concerns me
Again if we go down this track history will give us the answer.
Guest
 

Own up

Postby Kirsty Blair » Wed 02 Jul 2003 3:38 pm

Hi "Guest",

Would you mind signing your posts please? It makes it easier if I know who I'm addressing and it serves, also, to differentiate the posts from various guests.

I'm always happy to hear of different methods to achieve the same result. If you have a great way of ensuring reliable delivery I'd love to hear it.

And yes, I agree - only time will tell how current training methods will effect the long term development of our retrieving breeds... But I do feel positive about the outcomes.

Kirsty
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defending force fetch

Postby Peter Betteridge » Wed 02 Jul 2003 4:13 pm

Dear guest,I would really appreciate having a name to correspond with.For what it is worth I will set forth my impressions on force fetching. I confess to having only FF 2 dogs in total but I was lucky enough to be guided thru the process by someone who has truly studied and come close to fully understanding its full ramifications.
FF will NOT make up for any deficiencies in retrieving drive that your dog has,but will enhance many good qualities and most significantly it will prevent many undesirable traits developing.
FF will define the role of your retriever.If done properly it will steady your dog up to 70 % Picking up unwonted bumpers and shopping in the backpile will become things of the past.Your retriever will become far more solid on his memory birds and you will greatly increase the power of the word FETCH
You will also have a fair and consistant methodology for compelling your dog to work even when his labour board has decided to go on strike. this can be illistrated when you are de-cheating and your dog gives you a refusual after you have stopped him running the bank several times.FF will knock the confusion out of the dog.
Problems such as no goes slow goes, poor handovers, slow returns,retrieving without permission and switching are all delt with during the FF process. A contest of wills between you and your dog is a likely scenerio and if handled properly will define for your dog his obligations to you and his work.As a process it is not cruel,infact many dogs wag their tails all the way thru it. However it is a complex process and I recommend asking the advice of an expert before embarking on a FF program. I consider myself very much a beginner in this area
There is alot of mis information around which I think sadly has coloured the opinion of " guest" or whoever you are.
The top trainers all FF and all seek out the best possible genetics as FF will never make up for lack of ability.FF is not a magic formula that will help you win trials but it will add to the trainability of your dog and increase your enjoyment in training a high quality retriever. Remember the bottom line still remains, your dog still has to find birds and no one can put in what nature has left out
Peter Betteridge
 
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force fetch

Postby Maureen Cooper » Wed 02 Jul 2003 5:04 pm

Reading the responses to this query and been involved like Peter with force fetching, another comment I can add is that the temperament of the dog concerned can also make a difference.

My first bitch was not FF and yet she won two State titles for me and was a mad retriever. My next dog was a male and he was put through through the full programme and like Kirsty I did not enjoy doing it and I did feel that it might have contributed to his occasional damaging of birds as the word 'fetch' assumed such powerful meaning, however I did see the benefit if a no go situation was involved. He was retired from All Age due to injury.

My next bitch was also pretty keen at retrieving and so I did a lesser form of FF, using it onto a line of dummies as I feel it can have a place. She achieved her RT Ch.My two latest bitches have NOT been force fetched at all as I felt that though both have heaps of drive, they are both very soft especially the youngest and I felt it would flatten them. I think that people forget that dogs are like children, not all are alike and where force may succeed with one dog, praise and food can work wonders with another. I think that force fetching has its place but work out which kind of temperament dog you have before you use it.

I read that some Americans have been buying dogs ex the UK from field trialling kennels there as the US use of the FF has meant they are losing the dog with natural ability and they are getting the headstrong dog who can only be controlled by FF or the E-collar. It would be a pity if we went down the same road. Quite a few triallers here are now using the E-collar too and so we are not all playing on the same field anyway.

It is also interesting to see so many hits on articles on the bulletin board and so few responses from the men when they say they have read articles and have an opinion! Makes us sound like whinging women!! Maybe though winning trials has too much importance to the menfolk... the playing for sheep stations syndrome! Or prestige of being the best?? We lack the killer instinct, ladies!
Maureen
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Postby Kerry » Thu 03 Jul 2003 5:30 pm

What a laugh this is. Reading an unsigned post, not once, but three times. If people are not prepared to sign their name to their opinions, then they really can't be worth listening to, or taken seriously.

Ok, FF.........I did not ever use FF on my Golden bitch. She was/is my first retriever and has never needed FF, and to be honest, I hadn't even heard of it when I began training her. She has always been a reliable dog in the field, apart from an early bunny retrieve which she blinked. But that has been permanently fixed now, and she never refuses to go, fetch or deliver. She has her RT CH title without the aid of FF.

But, my young Lab. has had FF. This was done to ensure that when I said fetch, he carried out the task. It was not a drawn out process, and I probably did not carry it out as correctly or as diligently as required, but, the dog fetches, delivers etc., all with a soft mouth. His temperament is entirely different to the goldie.

Incorporating FF into your training program is purely an individual decision and really, it depends, as Maureen said, on your dog's temperament. I do not believe my Golden would have been a better retriever had she been FF, far from it. Being rather soft to train, it would have been the wrong decision to use it on her.

Look, there are people who train their retrievers with food, with E collars, by beating them into submission, etc etc. I think, not one way is RIGHT, and not one way will guarantee you a winner. There is far more to it than that.

And......yes you are right Maureen. Us gentle lady folk seem to hog this bulletin board. Apart from Peter, the men are pretty noticeable by their absence. It is a pity, because many of the top dogs in Oz are trained by the men, and their input into these discussions would be interesting to many.

Kerry
Kerry
 

FF

Postby Garrick Bridges » Sun 06 Jul 2003 6:26 pm

Hi all,
I am very much a beginner when it comes to training dogs but I am extremely enthusiastic and enjoy attending retrieving trials and take every opportunity to learn from experienced handlers. IMHO I believe the FF has merit when used with particular dogs, a point already made by others in this thread. Can somebody tell me where to find info regarding the FF. I have read about it on a number of sites but would appreciate a simple to follow, step by step program.
Garrick
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FF

Postby Kirsty Blair » Tue 08 Jul 2003 1:00 pm

Hi Garrick,

The force fetch program I followed was in a book called "Training Retrievers for Marshes and Meadows" by James Spencer. It has some nice pictures and is very easy to follow. He also emphasises taking your time and doing it right the first time. There are plenty of other books, I'm sure, that cover the same topic in equal detail and other listers might be able to suggest some.

What sort of dog have you got?

Happy trialling!
Kirsty
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FF

Postby Garrick Bridges » Wed 09 Jul 2003 10:21 am

Hi Kirsty,
thanks for the reply. I have 2 Labs - 0ne 2yr old and one pup. The older dog is super keen but has some 'issues' which I think FF may help with.
Garrick
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Force Fetch

Postby Doug Grant » Sat 12 Jul 2003 3:26 pm

Well, "guest" certainly generated some interest on the topic of force fetching. Here are some comments from a Canadian trainer........by way of introduction, I have trained professionally for many years, specializing in basic training of young dogs, building a strong foundation on a program of Results Through Respect. In the past five years, 11 dogs that had basic training with me have obtained their Field Trial Championships. My dogs are noted for their style, drive and desire, and I believe this to be due in large part to the force fetch program that all dogs go through.
One of the respondents says "FF has merit when used with particular dogs", but I firmly believe it is important for ALL dogs. Many owners believe their dog to be 'force fetched' when it will pick up a bird or dummy and deliver to hand, but most North American trainers don't consider the force fetch complete until a dog has been taught to hold, drop (or give), hold while sitting, hold while heeling, hold while coming ('here'), fetch, fetch against resistance, walking fetch, stick fetch, ladder fetch, force to pile, force into water and force across water.
As Peter Betteridge has put it "FF will not make up for any deficiencies in drive, but will enhance most good qualities and prevent undesirable traits developing". The full force fetch program will give you the tools to prevent dropping of birds, slow pick-up, roughness with game, refusal to enter water or cover, popping, bugging, cheating, no-goes and many other problems that are so much easier to prevent than to cure. If you have any questions, contact me at decoydrums@telus.net and I'll be happy to answer serious enquiries to the best of my ability. Good luck with FF and training!
Doug Grant
 
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ladder fetch???

Postby Peter Betteridge » Tue 15 Jul 2003 8:08 pm

bopper
what is ladder fetch????? Alot of top Australian trainers do all the other parts of FF that you mention ,but I have never heard of ladder fetch.Most Australians struggle with FF and are unsure how much you need to get on the dog and when you have as good a response as your going to get and its time to move on.Where is the deliniation between thorough and hitting your head against a brick wall.? I would constantly ask myself " have I made a deep enough impression on this dog??" I personally would love to learn about how you sequence FF and what signs you look out for. Is there any chance that you could post it up for us all to learn from??.We appreciate your input into this forum
peter betteridge
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Postby Doug Grant » Tue 22 Jul 2003 8:09 am

Hello Peter et al:........I'll try to answer your questions about the FF....let me emphasize that I don't pretend to have all the answers and am always searching for better methods; I can only relate what I have learned from others and what has worked for me. Perhaps I can be of some help to some people in speeding up the process by learning to 'read' their dogs better.......
The ladder fetch? Just a term for heeling your dog past a succession of 10 or 12 training dummies spaced about 15 ft. apart and alternately commanding 'fetch' or 'no' so that the dog learns to only fetch on command and to ignore everything else.
Years ago we didn't usually start a FF program until a dog was about a year old, and the sequence usually involved elaborate set-ups of training tables, wires, ropes, pulleys, toe-hitches and a routine that was usually upsetting and often terrifying to the dog. The whole process often took a couple of months, but now I like to start a pup at 4 or 5 months and the whole process usually only takes 2 to 3 weeks. If the pup is already retrieving to hand, I carry on with marks during the FF, but if not, I don't throw any marks until the FF is completed.
I like to sit in a comfortable chair (lazy guy that I am) with the pup (on a leash) sitting by my side. Instead of a dowel or dummy, I use one of the small paint brush rollers (about 8" long X 2" dia.) With lots of praise and encouragement the pup will usually have the 'hold' mastered in about 3 short (2 or 3 minute) sessions over 3 or 4 days. Next I teach to pup to hold while I walk around him, then have him hold while I walk away from him and call him to me ( always on a lead for control). Then walking at heel carying the dummy.
If the pup has gone through this with a good attitude, I will introduce the 'fetch' with an ear pinch. Actually, with a puppy the 'pinch' is usually just a 'squeeze' between thumb and forefinger. If the pup has teeth starting to come in, I postpone the 'fetch' until the new teeth are in. During this time, it's a good opportunity to work on basic obedience.
Many people run into problems with the 'fetch' routine, and often it's a failure on the part of the handler to recognize effort by the dog. There is an excellent publication in Canada called 'Retrievers Online' which I recommend highly. Check their website at http://www.retrieversonline.com.
In vol.14, No.1, P.7, editor Dennis Voight has an excellent article titled "Finding the Try". In this article, Dennis points out that many trainers have failed to recognize an effort by the dog when applying negative reinforcement. For example, the dog may partially open his mouth or reach forward slightly, but fails to actually grab the dummy. The trainer, failing to recognize this effort, applies more pressure to complete the action. To the dog, this means he has been punished for trying. This sequence often continues, and the dog may 'shut down' completely. The purpose of the force must be to correct for lack of effort, not to punish for trying.
With an older pup, I use a wide fabric or leather collar on the dog, just loose enough so that I can slide the fingers of my left hand under it (palm up). This gives me control of the dog while I apply the ear pinch to his left ear. Don't let the dog anticipate; make him wait for the 'fetch' command before he reaches for the dummy. Teaching this portion of the fetch command should only take a couple of days.
If there are questions about what has been covered so far, please let me know; and If you're interested in the rest of the FF procedure I'll continue with the rest of the steps.......Have fun training!
Bopper
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FF

Postby K Normanl » Thu 24 Jul 2003 2:07 am

I'm constantly amazed that folks, both here in the States and elsewhere, will bad mouth FF without understanding what it is and what it is supposed to accomplish.

Let's get one thing clear....FF is a method to prepare the dog to handle PRESSURE. The delivery and mouth issues are nice by-products of the forcing process.

The dog learns that it may turn off "pressure" by complying (retrieving) and doing as it is commanded. Mostly this is in reference to blinds...i.e. "go when I tell you". The e-collar is used to accomplish this pressure. This is the forcing to pile work mentioned above.

An e-collar is a tool that is used to reinforce KNOWN commands You do not TEACH with an e-collar. Thus, it is no more than a very long check cord that is used to enforce KNOWN commands.

ANY forcing work HAS to be TAUGHT within the parameters of a SYSTEMATIC and FAIR program. One step builds upon the next. To do anything else is ABUSE, which we DO NOT tolerate.

Those who say that FF compensates for retrieving deficiencies have lost sight of their OVERALL program. Here in the States we BREED natural desire and birdiness into our pups....FF'ing is a means of harnessing and controlling that great desire. If you HAVE to FF a dog to encourage retrieving, your breeding program (or potential puppy purchase) is suspect indeed!!!!
K Normanl
 

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