Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

For discussion on anything retrieving related - trialing, training equipment, news, etc.

Moderator: Peter Butterfield

Should clubs have the option to use artificial game at Retrieving Trials ?

Poll ended at Sun 15 Jul 2018 11:58 am

Yes
32
74%
No
11
26%
Undecided
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 43

Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Alison Jacques Menil » Mon 23 Apr 2018 6:19 pm

Hi Peter

Interesting topic, I too cannot find a recipe for Dokken ducks. I have tried to register our vote in the poll, however, there is no box to tick, maybe I am missing something or is it a claytons poll? Where did you get your NSW statistics and percentage about the people willing to use artificial game? Was there a survey we missed?
We both participate in RATG and Retrieving trials and enjoy both diciplines, however, when we enter a retrieving trial we expect to us game which is the whole concept of the sport.

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Alison Jacques Menil
 
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Peter Betteridge » Mon 23 Apr 2018 8:20 pm

Hmm Jacques
Which peter r u referring to?
Like u I can’t find a recipe for artificial game nor can I find one for frozen pigeons although neither of those points are relevant
Frozen pigeons are not repeat not the whole concept of retrieving trials
We have discussed this topic in all age in Nsw many times last year we had a discussion that I participated in in which 100%of the all age triallers agrred that clubs should be given a choice we had 2 national
Winners plus 5 others who have had RTch Dogs no highly aggressive posts no personal attacked and no psychotic rants just the view of the vast majority
U r of course welcome to disagree it’s great that u have expressed your opinion in public
Peter Betteridge
 
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Joe Vella » Mon 23 Apr 2018 10:24 pm

Hi Peter Betteridge,
I hope you don't understand this post as being an attack on you or anybody as I don't mean it to be.
You asked the question with regards to recipes so I feel that I should make you aware that there are numerous recipes which one can try his or her luck with.
If you are really interested I am willing to furnish you with recipes to cook pigeons, the pigeon is regarded as Game in many countries and as such there are various recipes available.
I must make you aware though that pigeons don't cook very well when in a frozen state and Peter I don't believe that the humble pigeon is in a frozen state when it is used as Game at Retrieving Trials but frozen pigeons have been used by Handlers in training young dogs which are still learning how to carry Game or by Handlers who's dogs may have a tendency to damage birds and through the use of frozen pigeons Handlers/trainers of these dogs hope to reduce or eliminate Hardmouth tendencies.
Pigeons are bred for the table by some people and pigeons are hunted as well.
I suggest to you Peter that when pigeons as Game are hunted I don't believe these would be fit for the table if these are damaged in anyway by the dog and of course the plastic Artificial substitute is just not fit for the table whether the dog damages these or the dog doesn't.

Joe Vella
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Gareth Tawton » Wed 25 Apr 2018 9:38 pm

Hi All,

Like Russell I have managed trials and sourced game for many years.

For those that make blanket statements such as "games is not in short supply" please contact me I'm looking for an easy source of good quality fat pigeons of consistent colour at a reasonable price say $3 each. I don't want to drive more than an hour or so from home so would prefer a supplier in regional Victoria.

Currently there are about 3-4 people in Victoria who regularly supply birds for trials. If you talk to any of them I'm sure you will find that sourcing birds is a difficult and costly process. We work on this 12 months of the year not leave it to the last minute.

In the real world pigeons are much harder to source today than ever before.

While I am a strong believer in testing dogs for hard mouth and hate the idea of moving to artificial game I am a realist.

I would happily endorse in the first instance a rule change that included artificial game being allowed at the clubs discretion in Novice and Restricted trials. This would reduce the minimum number of birds required by clubs, reduce costs while still ensuring full titled dogs ie RT Ch have been fully tested for hard mouth.

While we are on the subject of some major rule changes I would also endorse the removal of the requirement for the handler to have a gun. For those that raise there concerns about testing for a dog being gun shy or unsteady to shot. It would be simple to have clubs hold a separate steadiness test with the gun being fired by a licensed club representative. Dogs would need to have passed this test in order to obtain any title.

Food for thought...

Cheers,

Gareth
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Paul Hamson » Thu 26 Apr 2018 8:50 am

I personally have no objection to some Dokken Ducks being used but would not like to see them fully replace feather and fur. A possible compromise may be to require at least one item of game to be used on the last run of every Novice, Restricted and All Age stake and, on every run of Championship stakes. This would ensure that stakes/titles are only won by dogs who will retrieve game with a tender mouth whilst reducing the amount of game required to run trials. Either way it is good that people are expressing their views.

I have made a submission to the NSW RAFT that the rules be amended to allow dogs, who have not gained any championship points (1st in All Age or 1st or 2nd in a Championship), or been awarded an AARD title, to continue to compete in Restricted. An RRD title could be obtained by winning 3 trials or completing 10 trials under at least 3 different judges. This would assist in retaining people in the sport who don’t, for whatever reason, wish to compete in All Age.

Regards
Paul Hamson
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Wayne Outtrim » Thu 26 Apr 2018 7:41 pm

Its not often I post on this site, but I felt I must on this subject. I too have travelled many many klms to secure game for our clubs over the years and will continue until there is no game to secure. So up until then I believe we need not panick just yet Oh yes I realise if during the next 5 years we cant get game it could create a problem if we haven't got some sort of rule in place so that our sport can continue, but I believe if this rule were to be agreed upon it wont be long before NO GAME will be used. Okay that may not happen and I also think it wont ruin our sport entirely but is it the way to go just yet ???
A few things that I think that may help our sport survive
1 less Ratg events and more beginners tests where guns and game are used after all wasn't that it was introduced for [stepping stone to retrieving]
2 allow as Paul H stated
3 get our sport on a level playing level I'm sure we are ALL wanting the people STILL using those illegal training devices to STOP hell we are so paranoid about Greenies imagine if they were to see some using those devices and if caught WOW end of our sport [it will happen]
Wayne Outtrim
 
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Wayne Outtrim » Thu 26 Apr 2018 7:59 pm

Don't expect to get too many replies Why
Wayne Outtrim
 
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Re: Artificial Game in Retrieving Trials

Postby Joe Vella » Mon 30 Apr 2018 9:17 am

In my previous post I suggested to Peter Betteridge as follows, Rather than to try to ruin the game of Retrieving I suggest that you should endeavour to create a new discipline one which would be recognised nationally through the ANKC to conduct trials just how you guys would want them to be. I am sure you would have the support of most people if not all around the country.”

I believe If this is accepted this would result in a win for all who have concerns over the use of pigeons in Retrieving Trials.

I also believe that the Game of Retrieving as we currently know it should be preserved as it has been in the past for future generations of Handlers who may want to participate in the thorough testing of Retrieving Gundogs.

The Retrieving Hall of Fame was created to honour those Prominent People who's effort and know how helped to make the Game the success it is today and the Dogs which excelled so brilliantly in the sport of Retrieving as we currently know it. Contrary to how some may think this will change if the Game of Retrieving is so drastically modified as is being suggested.

If certain Handlers do have concerns over the use of pigeons in Retrieving Trials and do believe that Retrieving Trials should be modified to include Plastic dummies as Artificial Game for the dogs to retrieve then this will be accommodated by the creation of the New Retrieving Discipline.

If a new Retrieving Discipline is created, the clubs would have a choice of two disciplines to conduct and for the Handlers to participate in.

One Retrieving Discipline as we currently know it.
the other
A New Retrieving Discipline which would include the use of Plastic Dummies as Artificial Game. Rules to govern the discipline can be established just as RATG. and the Retrieving Ability Test were established by the ANKC.

If accepted this will end all of the arguments that arise over the use of Pigeons and/or Plastic Dummies as Artificial game at every time when a Retrieving Rule review is conducted.

If Game is available then clubs do have a choice of 2 disciplines If Game is not available then the only choice that clubs have is to conduct Trials within the Rules of the newly created discipline.
If one discipline fails then there is still the other to continue on with.

I am of the opinion that through the ANKC the States should be arguing this point and this should be decided upon before the the Retrieving Rule Review continues.

If the States decide that there should only be one discipline then the States would be required to meet with their rank and file and decide and make submissions to the ANKC as to which rules would require modification to accommodate Plastic Dummies as Game and the combination of the current Game list and the inclusion of Plastic Dummies as Game which may be used together during the conduct of one Run by judges.

I suggest that the rules which will be impacted upon are numerous as every rule which makes reference to Game would have to be looked at. Hardmouth issues when a combination of the two, plastic and pigeons,ducks et,etc. are used will Judges be instructed that when real Game is used Hardmouth is an issue but not when Plastic Dummies are used.
I suggest there is more to it than the people who are commenting on this issue are thinking off.

There is only one way to satisfy all and that is, two separate disciplines.
Joe Vella
 
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