Trial Rule Questions/Comments....

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Trial Rule Questions/Comments....

Postby FOM - Lainee » Tue 24 Jan 2006 8:15 am

Hello. I've read the Rules of Conduct of Retriever Trials for Gundogs and naturally have some questions. Please bare with me.

Paragraph 83 states "the handler will not close the gun until he reaches the Firing Point."

I understand that there is Control Point, that is where you remove the leash/collar and recieve the gun and appropriate amount of inserts.

First question: What type of gun is normally used? Pump? Auto? Double Barrel? O/U? Do you hold onto the inserts before moving to the firing line or can you in the case of an auto/pump load the tube?

So now the dog, myself caring a shotgun makes it to the firing line, I have the dog sitting and ready to go, how do I signal to the judges I'm ready and so is the dog? By closing the gun?

After I have "shot" the birds, I know I must hold/carry the gun in a safe manner while the dog is retrieving and I'm under judgement. Here in the US I run HRC and they drill into your head gun safety also - is it allowable to say "Gun Safe." after firing at all the marks/casts? Or is it a no-no? Here we get in the habbit of saying that after we have the breach open and safety on, so the judges have a confirmation from the handler the gun is safe. This is one of those habbits that I do without realizing, but if talking is not allowed then I need to get that through my thick skull now! :)

Also shouldering the gun is required. Do you by chance use different length of guns? Reason I ask is cause I'm short and some guns are just too long and I have a heck of a time shouldering them. I just need to know so I can do a little extra practicing with a full size shotgun if not.

What happens if an insert doesn't fire and/or the gun jams (in the case of a pump/auto)? Here in the US we are asked to say "Gun Jam!" and "Bang!" if we can not safely and in a timely manner remove the spent insert.

How does the judge communicate to the handler they may have their retriever pick up the birds? Here the judges call your number or say "Dog" depending on the venue.

I see paragraph 90/91 states a dog will deliver in the "front finish" position and the handler should not take a step toward the dog and only use 1 hand to take the bird. All this makes sense. It also states the dog needs to be stationary. Make sense. My question is, the dog comes in and sits in front of you, you take the bird - can you have the dog finish into a heel position and continue to pick up the birds or do you need to place the bird on the ground first? Also it states you can carry the birds - can I use a game vest and place them in a vest? What's the normal procedure?

That's a lot of questions, sorry but I want to do right by the dog(s) I'm going to handle so I figured I'd better read up now rather than later! I am hoping to get a coupld days of training in before the trial, but I do not want to just depend on that to get me squared away.

Any advice? Any no-no's I should know about? Any unwritten rules to know about like we have here in the US?

One last question and I'll give you guys a rest - what is the dress code for a trial?

Lainee, Flash and Bullet
FOM - Lainee
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue 15 Mar 2005 2:05 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Your Questions

Postby Robert Tawton » Tue 24 Jan 2006 11:14 am

Hi Lainee,

I have interleaved my responses with your original questions.

Paragraph 83 states "the handler will not close the gun until he reaches the Firing Point."

I understand that there is Control Point, that is where you remove the leash/collar and receive the gun and appropriate amount of inserts.

1. The Control Point is usually separated from the Firing Point by a distance of about 10m (terrain permitting). The Control and Firing Points are defined by two stakes/flags – separation may vary but is never less than 4 feet – we do not use a “mat” as is current practise in US Field Trials.

2. Inserts come in two basic forms: a) Used 12 gauge shotgun shell cases that have had the primer replaced and/or b) a replica of a 12 gauge cartridge machined from either steel or brass into which a new primer can be fitted. A potential drawback with the metal type inserts is that, depending on machining tolerances, the primers can fall out if the inserts are not handled with care.

First question: What type of gun is normally used? Pump? Auto? Double Barrel? O/U? Do you hold onto the inserts before moving to the firing line or can you in the case of an auto/pump load the tube?

1. Almost without exception the guns used are 12 gauge double barrel shots guns and are usually of the hammerless design. !2 gauge hammer guns are used on odd occasions and even rarer circumstances 12 gauge U/O’s. Pump guns are never used. In any even the Judge will allow handlers to familiarised themselves with the gun being used before the start of an event. Most but not all guns used in Trials have an automatic safety i.e the action of “breaking “ the gun activates the Safety or putting it another way, after closing the gun the handler must push the safety forward in order to fire the gun. This can be a trap if nerves get the better of the handler.

2. Technically and in accordance with the Rules, the Control Point Steward, after taking delivery of dog’s lead, should separately hand the competitor the gun (broken) and the inserts. Most handlers chamber the inserts at this time without closing the gun. Sometimes, in the case of metal inserts and loose fitting primers, the Steward will chamber the inserts before handing the competitor the gun. Its called being flexible!

So now the dog, myself caring a shotgun makes it to the firing line, I have the dog sitting and ready to go, how do I signal to the judges I'm ready and so is the dog? By closing the gun?

1. The act of closing the gun and looking in the direction from which the first bird will be cast is the indication to the Judge that you are ready.

After I have "shot" the birds, I know I must hold/carry the gun in a safe manner while the dog is retrieving and I'm under judgement. Here in the US I run HRC and they drill into your head gun safety also - is it allowable to say "Gun Safe." after firing at all the marks/casts? Or is it a no-no? Here we get in the habbit of saying that after we have the breach open and safety on, so the judges have a confirmation from the handler the gun is safe. This is one of those habbits that I do without realizing, but if talking is not allowed then I need to get that through my thick skull now!

1. Our Rules provide for the gun to be broken before the dog is released and/or immediately after the dog is released. As a Judge I can’t not see a problem if a handler was to say “gun safe” before or immediately after releasing their dog – the issue is simply not addressed in our Rules. My advice, do what comes naturally, but remember your dog will need to understand to procedure and if it doesn't all hell might break loose! :D

Also shouldering the gun is required. Do you by chance use different length of guns? Reason I ask is cause I'm short and some guns are just too long and I have a heck of a time shouldering them. I just need to know so I can do a little extra practicing with a full size shotgun if not.

1. There is not a range of gun lengths available to suit specific handler needs. Most guns would have a pull length of around the 14 to 141/2 inches and certainly we have a number of short lady handlers an they seem to get by.

2. The issue of shouldering the gun comes from seeking to simulate “real” shooting conditions. The requirement is also there to prevent handlers from “firing from the hip” with their focus solely directed towards their dog and not looking towards the fall of game.

What happens if an insert doesn't fire and/or the gun jams (in the case of a pump/auto)? Here in the US we are asked to say "Gun Jam!" and "Bang!" if we can not safely and in a timely manner remove the spent insert.

1. In the advent of a “misfire’” and depending on the level of the Stake, the Judge may tell you to send your dog or alternatively may ask you to retire (expecting of course for you to observe gun safety at all times) and after examining the gun will give you a re-run. If the Judge was to find that the problem was due to handler error, he may not give you a re-run on the basis that you cannot retrieve game you didn’t shoot and the failure to shoot was an error on your part and not a gun/primer malfunction.

How does the judge communicate to the handler they may have their retriever pick up the birds? Here the judges call your number or say "Dog" depending on the venue.

1. Judges do not normally tell you when to release your dog. At the pre-trail briefing (immediately before the first competitor commences on the first Run (Series), the Judge will explain what he expects. Most Judges will say, “It is up to you as the handler to demonstrate to me that your dog is steady to shot”. Therefore, most handlers will pause briefly after firing the last shot, break their gun and then release their dog. You should also remember that in multiple bird retrieves, the Judge will generally specify the pickup order.

I see paragraph 90/91 states a dog will deliver in the "front finish" position and the handler should not take a step toward the dog and only use 1 hand to take the bird. All this makes sense. It also states the dog needs to be stationary. Make sense. My question is, the dog comes in and sits in front of you, you take the bird - can you have the dog finish into a heel position and continue to pick up the birds or do you need to place the bird on the ground first? Also it states you can carry the birds - can I use a game vest and place them in a vest? What's the normal procedure?

1. Most handlers have a game pouch attached to their belt or use a game vest. If you choose to not use a vest/pouch at what point the bird is placed on the ground is really up to the handler. Placing the bird on the ground is seen as a requirement to circumvent the past practise of throwing the bird on the ground with a backhand flick. Some Judges may ask you to carry one item of game in your hand as you return to the Control Point - this is to test whether or not the dog will jump or try to snatch at the item of game.

That's a lot of questions, sorry but I want to do right by the dog(s) I'm going to handle so I figured I'd better read up now rather than later! I am hoping to get a could days of training in before the trial, but I do not want to just depend on that to get me squared away.

Any advice? Any no-no's I should know about? Any unwritten rules to know about like we have here in the US?

1. Unwritten Rule: Under most judges if your dog took a poor initial line and you were to recall the dog to your side with the view to resending your dog, you would be asked to withdraw your dog. This is different from the case where the dog “breaks to shot; in this situation if you can stop your dog within a few paces and recall it, the incident would be viewed a a partial break to shot, thus incurring a lesser penalty.

One last question and I'll give you guys a rest - what is the dress code for a trial?

1. Put simply – smart casual, depending on the weather this could range from shorts through jeans to full wet weather gear. Footwear is terrain dependent, ranging from sneakers through field boots to gum boots (Wellingtons). Most handlers have white handling jackets and only a few use black gloves. White coats are a no-no in the gallery.


Kindest regards, RWT
Robert Tawton
 
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon 17 Nov 2003 9:51 am
Location: Canberra,ACT,Australia

Postby Prue Winkfield » Tue 24 Jan 2006 11:40 am

This thread is really raising all the things we take for granted but which must be quite confusing to new people coming in - perhaps another retirement project for you Bob - a handout to new triallers explaining all the things that are not in the rule book or are not clear to the uninitiated?
Lainee's questions provides the perfect basis! Lainee - would you like to handle a GSP :P
Prue Winkfield
 
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Location: victoria

Postby Kerry Webster » Tue 24 Jan 2006 11:48 am

Lainee,

I too suffer from what some so kindly call, "duck's disease". In other words I'm short.
There is no problem firing the guns used at trials, the only problem I encounter sometimes, is breaking the gun after firing, but judges are most accommodating in this regard and will instruct you to send your dog and worry about the gun afterwards.

Also remember that touching the dog, or excessive talking is a nono, and it is necessary to keepi within the pegs whilst handling the dog (which is often difficult to keep to).

Good luck in your go at Aussie trialing, hope you have fun.

Kerry
My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am.
Kerry Webster
 
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Location: Boddington, Western Australia

Questions and Tips

Postby Robert Tawton » Tue 24 Jan 2006 1:36 pm

Hi Lainee,
Further to my earlier advice, I have just finished looking at the video clips of the 2005 US Open National Field Trial and one thought sprang to mind, re your question relating, “How does the judge communicate to the handler they may have their retriever pick up the birds?” Please now refer to my earlier response.

In the video clip depicting Jim Gonia running his dog in the 10 Series I was quite surprised by the number of times Jim looked from his dog to the intended destination and back again before indicating to the Judge he was ready. While I stand by my original advice that the act of closing the gun and looking up is a signal to the Judge that you are ready, repeatedly looking up and back to your dog MAY falsely convey the impression you are ready even though you haven’t closed the gun. It can depend on where the Judge is located as your body may mask his view of the gun.

My modified advice is therefore, either during the demo phase, or as you are approaching the Firing Point, pick a spot on the ground immediately in front of the Firing Point and align your dog with this spot without looking up, now close the gun and look up clearly indicating that you are ready. In 40 years I have been caught on one or two occasions where the bird was cast before I had closed the gun and upon reflection I probably arrived at the FP, looked down at the dog, looked up at the destination, looked back at the dog then started to close the gun and when I again looked up the bird was already on its way. Luckily in most instances I was able to recover the situation.

Kindest regards, RWT
Robert Tawton
 
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon 17 Nov 2003 9:51 am
Location: Canberra,ACT,Australia

Postby FOM - Lainee » Wed 25 Jan 2006 2:23 am

WOW! Thanks for the reply Robert! :D

I'm looking foward to attending the trial and hopefully handling a dog or two. Those who have offered dogs to me to handle, sure thing I'll handle them - I will make NO promises, other than I'll try my best to follow the rules and not get dismissed from a dumb handler error!

We are about 99% positive we will be there, we are working out some of the finer points/details and I'll will get back to all that have affered a dog for me to handle.

As far as the GSP - my neighbor as one that I'm helping to train :? she is gun shy so its been painful, but we have finally gotten her to the point that she desires birds vs. hiding when she hers a gun go off even though her style lacks some. We will get her there - its been about a year and I'm happy that she will at least not run and hide any more. So yeah I'll handle a GSP, they may not be a lab which is my breed of shoice, but a dog that will put a bird in the bag is alright by me - FYI I've hunted with a blue healer, Hedi is her name - very nice dog!

Lainee, Flash and Bullet
FOM - Lainee
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue 15 Mar 2005 2:05 am
Location: Colorado, USA


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