How many new people coming into retrieving ?

[Jim Cattermole]

gday Jason

[quote="Jason Ferris Jim your argument appears to contradict itself. How can the committee vote unless called to do so by its chair (in his facilitator role)?
Cheers, Jason.[/quote]

Well I thought I said that it was the responsibility of the Secretary to call a meeting and I believe the secretary is an employee of the ANKC in a position of responsibility, that includes ensuring the legal requirements of the ANKC are fulfilled. As secretary of FRA I have responsibility to ensure meetings are called as laid down in its Constitution. While the President might convince me to delay a meeting or two there is an over-riding requirement to hold a meeting within a set time period. Once we have run out of time there will be a meeting called regardless of the Presidents (or secretary's) wishes. If the National RAFT charter states that there must be a certain number of meetings held in a specific time period than it is the secretary's responsibility to call those meetings.
What powerplay goes on during the meeting is a separate issue. Again the secretary is responsible for preparing the agenda and for ensuring that the agenda is followed. The Chairman has the power of ensuring protocol is followed not determining what agenda items may or may not be considered.
The charter is a brief document, may be there are other rules or procedures giving the chairman more authority than disclosed in the charter. The charter certainly does not support the actions described. It's late I am diversifying my topics too widely I shall put the dogs to bed.
regards Jim

[Jason Ferris]

Well I thought I said that it was the responsibility of the Secretary to call a meeting and I believe the secretary is an employee of the ANKC in a position of responsibility, that includes ensuring the legal requirements of the ANKC are fulfilled. As secretary of FRA I have responsibility to ensure meetings are called as laid down in its Constitution. While the President might convince me to delay a meeting or two there is an over-riding requirement to hold a meeting within a set time period. Once we have run out of time there will be a meeting called regardless of the Presidents (or secretary's) wishes. If the National RAFT charter states that there must be a certain number of meetings held in a specific time period than it is the secretary's responsibility to call those meetings.
What powerplay goes on during the meeting is a separate issue. Again the secretary is responsible for preparing the agenda and for ensuring that the agenda is followed. The Chairman has the power of ensuring protocol is followed not determining what agenda items may or may not be considered.
The charter is a brief document, may be there are other rules or procedures giving the chairman more authority than disclosed in the charter. The charter certainly does not support the actions described. It's late I am diversifying my topics too widely I shall put the dogs to bed.
regards Jim

Jim

You sure do have an interesting take on the RAFT charter. In practical terms, do you expect the single person employed by the ANKC to service all of the ANKC committees to proactively chase work in the face of what must be an enormous workload?

Personally, I believe that a RAFT chair who demonstrates their commitment to the sport by encouraging communication between the State and Territory RAFTs, rather than sitting back and waiting for the ANKC Secretary, would be an asset.

Regards, Jason.

[Jim Cattermole]

Sorry Jason
I just typed a long winded reply and was about to submit when everything dropped out. Probably for the better I was just warming up and probably said something that would put me in the doo doo. I will try and reply in a couple of days
thanks Jim

[Wayne Parkinson]

I just got back from S.A. and what I saw heartened me greatly.
There are new people running in novice and they are having a great time.
It is through the hard work of a core group who have refused to let the scene die and they are to be congratulated.

By they way if you want a fantastic weekend.
Head over for one of their trials. You won't meet a nicer bunch of people.

Wayne Parkinson

P.S. They also have some nice wine so be careful

[Kerry Webster]

As some of the posts on this subject have gone a little off track, I was pleased to see Wayne commenting on numbers of trialers in S.A.

Just how many "brand new" people have joined us this year ? We have two here in W.A., with several others still putting training into their dogs before venturing out into the competitive field. Both handlers and dogs that have entered their first Novice trial, have competed in obedience, so are not completely out of their league.

I am hoping that these and others still going to training classes keep on with their dogs, and give retrieving a real go, as my personal opinion of why people tend to leave, is that they think it is an "easy" sport. How hard could it be after all, sending your dog to do a retrieve. How often have we heard "Oh my dog fetches a ball in the backyard all the time, he won't have any problem". WRONG.

When the novice handler suddenly sees just how much time and effort has to go into producing a reliable, enthusiastic, stylish, focused and obedient retriever, I think it is too often put in the "too hard" basket. As well as all that, finding and travelling to sites that have cover and water can be difficult, and also finding someone willing to be your training partner.

It all boils down to dedication I suppose. There are those that will put in the hard work, be it months or years, take their dog to different areas of cover and water, not mind when their dog doesn't place, knowing it is a learning curve for both dog and handler, and work, work, work, towards their goal, and eventually it will happen, because of that dedication, and not expecting success to fall into their lap on the first outing.

Unfortunately, I cannot see too many younger people (under 50's) participating in retrieving. Too many have young families and children with other sporting interests. Teenagers usually are focused on the opposite sex, not dogs, and younger children still really need an adult for help in training, and attending trials.

Kerry

[Anne True]

As some of the posts on this subject have gone
It all boils down to dedication I suppose. There are those that will put in the hard work, be it months or years, take their dog to different areas of cover and water, not mind when their dog doesn't place, knowing it is a learning curve for both dog and handler, and work, work, work, towards their goal, and eventually it will happen, because of that dedication, and not expecting success to fall into their lap on the first outing.

Kerry

Kerry

I think you have captured the basis for many not being attracted to retrieving. I was put off starting because I was told all the above and how hard retrieving was and that you needed so much time to train. Much easier to do obedience, agility and even tracking and get that "title fix" along the way.

It does come down to dedication to do what you want to do. I see it with people I train in agility with, they are so obsessed with wanting to win and get all the titles in that they have pretty much completely dropped the obedience they used to do, several of them will train agility every night its available and then complain that they do not have time to do the obedience.

For me a back injury ended the tracking so I decided to go back and give retrieving a go, but on the basis that it would be our fun activity and with the hope we may at least gained an NRD title along.

I make do with what training I can do, but luckily for me I live near some parkland and the river which helps and some nights after I have taken my obedience class I do some flat work at the grounds where we train. We make the most of what we can, so as you say we can make do with what we have but you have to be dedicated to doing it otherwise its all too easy to nope that's too hard, I don't have the time.

Given I am one of those rare Under 50's I have a at least a decade or two more of salary slavery to go so have to fit in the domestic chours on a weekend and with a not so dog activity loving partner, this is what retrieving will probably have to be for me for sometime yet. My goal however in that time is to learn what I can and then maybe oneday I will have the time to dedicate to go that bit further.

I look at retrieving as being my twilight years canine activity when the body says no to running around an agility ring, and my current dabbling the laying of the foundation for that. Just hope I stay healthy enough to do it.

We hope in the next few weeks be able to free up Saturday mornings again to get along the the Retrieving clubs training here.

[Jim Cattermole]

Sorry Kerry
I am probably one of the ones who got sidetracked. I have noted one new person in trialling Queensland this year. Not an under 50's I fear but at least someone. One out of five that attended an introductory beginner training course in 2005, for some reason we didn't run one last year. That is damning in itself. I don't imagine there will be a course this year either unfortunately. Probably for the same reason we have dropped a trial this weekend. There was sheduled one for today but due to lack of support, entries and judges it had to be cancelled. The training course that was to be run last year was cancelled due to lack of interest also I remember. I guess no one wants to repeat the wasted effort in organising a non-event. This is a new malaise spreading rapidly for the last few years up here it would seem. I hope we can survive it.
regards Jim

[sarah watson]

I am one of the youngest trialing in queensland, well actually I think I am the youngest at 25. I have only been in the sport for about 3 years and only know about retrieving because my mum is involved. Probably the biggest reason why young people are not interested is because the amount of time you have to dedicate to training and the distances you have to travel but that is what you have to do for the things you love. I was fortunate enough to be brought up around dogs so naturally I ended up trialing myself. I am lucky to have had lots of support and advice from fellow trialers here in Queensland.

I do think we should have more for the dogs and/or handlers that are not ready for high levels or those who just like to stay in restricted etc. We have such low entries in restricted here in queensland, it must be hard for handlers who's dogs have gained their RRD but just never will be all age/championship material. I personally would not want to travel all that way to continiously get out after the first run.
I also think NRD/RRD/AARD do have meaning.. at least to me a new..ish person into the sport. One of my happiest days is when my girl got her Novice title and I will only be happier when she gets her next titles. I also agree with keeping the wins to get your titles. It gives you a goal to reach... I know if my dog has come second in a stake that I have to go home and train that little bit harder to get that win. I want my dogs win and get titles but not the easy way... When you have put the hard work in and get the win, it means so much more.


Sarah Watson

[Kerry Webster]

Just bumping this topic back into conversation again. With another new trialling season upon us, how is it looking for new competitors into the sport in your state ?

I think we might get a couple of newbies to try their hand this season in W.A., and, possibly one of them being a Flat Coat, which will be great to see in the field.

Kerry

[val mclennan]

I can only say I'm still trying, when I researched the breed Cockers, all I wanted to do is field work, I've been sidetracked in obedience, doing reasonably well, and tried agility, flyball, also tracking for a season. My aim is for field work ( much to the Cocker clubs amazement, yes they will get dirty and burs in their coat) fully understand and willing to spend many years training for field work, only wish I really knew what I was doing. With training, I can say, I moved to fast and expected too much. About to go back to basics, as I have discovered after all the good work (ha ha) I thought I was doing, they both work quite well in various local parks, but when I venture to paddocks, I loose all controll, what recall! what whistle response! and won't come out of the dam will still keep swimming even when I walk off and leave her!!!!!!
Anyone need a student , looking for a mentor or someone to train with, with lots of patience, don't forget I have two cockers with attuide, one with a lot of drive and hyperactive never stops, loves retrieving dummies of all types and owner who has never trained in this area, only basic obedience.
We may end up very old and still trying, just want them to do what they we breed for .

Val

[Kerry Webster]

Back to this topic again for 2010.

In W.A. in 2009 we had several new competitors, this time a Toller, and two Labradors, and then several new pups, all with more experienced handlers, began their careers in retrieving. This boosted our Novice stake considerably, but still, this was only three new people into the sport, and when we count who dropped out of retrieving, it doesn't even out. For several different reasons at least three All Age handlers are no longer competing. I know that one person is waiting on a puppy, another has just lost his dog, and a third person will not be returning.

We are still hopeful that more new novice people will give the competition a go next year, and the Retrieving Club has scheduled three training days over the retrieving season to encourage, inform and support new people to the sport. The club conducted training days this year, which was a very successful venture. Their format was to have one or two experienced AA persons in charge of a group of novice handlers, each to be in a designated area with a shotgun for each group. Whilst it was a great day, I still wonder whether it could be improved, and if individual attention to handlers to cover the several different aspects of trialing and handling their dogs, may have been better. (ie. one group going over heeling the dog, taking the gun from the GS, heeling to the FP; Another group working on delivery....etc).

I personally, would be very interested to hear the format of these types of training days held by clubs over east, and, how successful, or otherwise, it proved to be. If the persons over there who organised the training days could either reply here, or send me a pm it may help in the organisation of the 2010 training days.

Kerry

[Zelda Calitz]

I tried to get involved in retrieving in Vic last year, but as a complete 'newbie' I found it pretty tough. I think that the only way I could really see myself getting involved would be if there were regular training sessions, similar to obedience clubs, to get up to speed. It is not just getting to grips with the basics, but also training partners, training fascilities, etc. As a complete beginner, I felt there were just too many hurdles.

[Bill Allen]

Hi again all.
Ok, there's a number of considerations to take into account. I offer two points of consideration.
The first that I consider important from the newbie's position is the number of birds one may get, as a beginner handler, during a trial. It can be very disheartening for a new trialer to be put out for missing a bird on the 1st run & then have to head home with tail between legs so to speak. Yes I know that most (but not all) judges will allow handlers to follow on at the end of the remaining competing dogs in beginners/novice stakes.That isn't always the case though. Some newbies come along full of enthusiasm, bomb the first run, & that's it for the day for them. This can be extremely off-putting to newbies I believe. Especisally if they have travelled a fair distance. This only has to happen once to see a possible future trialer not return again.
I believe that at beginners/novice level ALL dogs/handlers should be entitled to participate in ALL runs. At the end of the day, should a dog/handler team have bombed a run & missed a bird - ok they may miss out on placing etc, but every effort must be made to ensure that all dogs/handlers have the opportunity to try for their full 3 birds.
It's very important I believe, that this should not be dealt with as an after-thought. When a competitor enters a trial they are basically asking the judge for their(judge's) opinion of their dog. Often if a dog has bombed the 1st run due to inexperience then they basically get no more assistance as they are out of competition. Whilst it is understandable that a judge needs to concentrate on remaining competing dogs, it's vitally important to the future of the sport that they also ensure that newbies receive as much assistance as they can offer in order to encourage their return. I believe that beginners/novice stakes must be focused 1st & foremost, on encouraging future participation of trialers as much as awarding placings, if not more so. 1st,2nd,& 3rd can always be more critically dealt with at the higher levels (restricted/all age) but if a new trialer is discouraged from trialing then what happens at the top level is no longer important as the sport will gradually loose participants. All Age stakes are completely irrelevent if there's no-one to compete in them.
I also believe that. at beginners level, the system of rating dogs 1st,2nd,3rd can be a very negative way of judging dogs. Basically we are saying "1st is important & anything else is not good enough". I believe that, in order to encourage new trialers, we should be asking dogs to meet a standard of perormance & rewarding those dogs that do. For instance, if the standard for a beginners stake is 80 points from a possible 110 (2 runs x 55 points) then ALL dogs that meet that standard & attain the 80 points or better, should be rewarded in order to encourage future participation in trials. We know that some trialers will run dogs at beginners level to get a place ribbon when they really should be moving onto novice level stakes. I have personally seen trialers that have been trialing for well over 10 years, running in beginners stakes. Yes they may have a new, young dog they are working-no problems with that, but I have also seen such handlers running 5/6 yo dogs in beginners. For a newbie trialer to be beaten in a beginners stake, right at the start of their trialing career, by someone that has been trialling for years is also very off-putting & can easilly result in that person not coming back to trials. Removing the 1st,2nd,3rd placings would discourage that 'ribbon hunting'. Offering a reward to everyone that produces beginners standard performance encourages further participation of newbies. Introducing placings at novice level would be a far better idea IMO.
I 'spose what I am saying here is "what is important ? - 1st,2nd,3rd or a required level of performance" If a dog produces the required level of performance at beginners level, they they should be acknowledged for it, regardless of whether the dog is the best on the day or not. Worry about which dogs are 'best' once they start heading into the higher levels of competition.

[Bill Allen]

Here's another small point to consider. Not passing judgment in anyway-just making comment.
I run Brittanies in RTs. I always strive to achive the best my dogs can, & always will. It's very important to me that I attempt to achieve the full potential of my dogs. However;
Truth be known, Britts are NOT retrievers & never will be. They are a dog that is expected to retrieve, but they are not dedicated retrievers. As such they will never be competitive at top level RTs. That's a fact.
The chance of one of our breed reaching all age competion, let alone placing, is extremely low.
Fact is that NO-ONE, including some past great names within the gundog world (including the late JT), has ever been able to attain an RT Ch title with a Britt. I believe that the RT Ch title is unattainable for our breed, especially today as training methods & performances of the top level retriever breeds rise to new levels.
My own personal aim? To get my dogs competive at restricted level stakes.
If can ever attain a restricted win with a dog (came close & did extremly well with Max until he lost his sight in left eye) then I will consider running all age for the sake of gaining experience (mine & dogs) but to be totally honest I have no interest in aiming for the unachiveable (RT Ch title). I aim for a level of performance that I believe the dog should be capable of, regardless of whether he is beaten by a better dog on the day or not. If I can take my dog home at the end of the day & honestly say "this dog did as well as he is truly capable of" then I could not care less if he came in last.

[Leanne O'Sullivan]

Hi Bill

Can I ask how many trials you attended this year because I was at every trial (except one) and cannot think of any judge who would not have let all competitors who were not successful in either the first or second runs have a go in all runs. They do have to compete at the end of the field but I don't see a problem with that.

The only reason I can think that any judge would not allow it would be because of excessive entries but as the entries in Beginners and Novice have been particularly low this year I honestly cannot remember a time that competitors were unable to continue running their dogs.

Cheers
Leanne