US experiences

[Julie Cramond]

Thanks for the quick responses.

I returned yesterday from the US where I observed two AKC hunt tests from junior hunt to master hunt test levels. I ran a dog, which had been trained for US field trials, on two days. We passed both days. It was the dogs first competition as well as mine. You can well imagine how nervous we both were - me more than the dog. It was also the first time I had ever blown a duck call and sat on a bucket (imagine in Australia such a thing - marks being marks!!!!!!). The junior hunt test set ups brought in many newbies to the "games".

I also took the opportunity to travel to two weekend field trials where I ran the test dog. That was also an amazing experience.

The six weeks that I spent in the US with A grade professional trainers and one very successful amateur trainer (who has great grounds where many other professional trainers train their dogs), with stay in my memory forever.

The quality of dog work that I observed during my stay and the consistency of EDUCATING a dog was beyond what I could state without boring you forever.

[Kirsty Blair]

Julie,

What can I say - I'm racked with envy......

Perhaps you could write an article on your trip and post it in the articles section of this site. I for one would love to hear all about it.

Kirsty

P.S. Any update on the 2004 seminar?

[Julie Cramond]

Kerry,

You are making it too hard for me. Could you ask specific questions, otherwise I would have to write a book!!!! LOL.

It has nearly been a week, and I am still wadding through my notes and videos, trying to come up with a new training program.

BTW, I observed many goldens while in the US. From what I saw of your golden boy when you trialled in Victoria, certainly has a lot of desire. What is his pedigree again?

Maintaining desire and great control is my number one aim.

Bottom line is that I had no idea until a couple of years ago how hard Australian trials were and what drills etc are required to teach a dog. I pray I have learnt something in my travels.

I love this edit feature. I forgot to answer your question regarding the seminar. Yes it is still on for next July. There has been a lot of interest from people that did not attend Bill's original seminar. As there also has been a lot of interest from past attendees to attend Bill's second seminar, the plan is to quickly (due to time restraints) in a single day !!!!!! to review the first seminar. The following three days will be training fundamentals - INTO THE FIELD (Australian testing requirements). The seminars are not for the faint hearted as both will be very intensive.

Andrew and I have purchased a new computer. During the change over I lost a lot of Emails.

Please Email me (juliecramond@bigpond.com) or ring me 03 97072705 if you are interested in the seminars.

[Kirsty Blair]

Hi Julie,

Ooooh, A BOOK! What a fantastic idea

I know you have a huge amount of stuff that you've seen and learnt but I'd love to hear about the goldies. Did they have alot more drive than ours? No doubt they're probably more controllable than mine

Perhaps you could just give us a general overview of where you went and who you saw. And any particularly exciting things that happened, and any new techniques you learnt, and any great dogs you saw.....okay just write the book!

I'll email you directly about the seminar.

BTW, you have to call me KIRSTY not KERRY or I'll get confused. Unless you're actually talking to Kerry in which case I'm really confused already

Kirsty

[Pat Thorn]

Bottom line is that I had no idea until a couple of years ago how hard Australian trials were and what drills etc are required to teach a dog. I pray I have learnt something in my travels.

Hi Julie
Would you elaborate on how hard our Aussie trials are? Are you comparing them to the US trials?

[Jason Ferris]

Hi all

I've split this topic as it was getting away from its original discussion on Geoff's training video and assuming a life of its own - largely through all of us wanting to hear about Julie's US experiences!

Tell us more Mrs Cramond!

Cheers, Jason.

[Julie Cramond]

You are all very naughty.

I tacked on my reply on another thread and now I am in THIS embarassing situation.

I will start by describing an American Kennel Club hunt test on which apparently Australian trials are based on.

I arrived at the site exhausted, after a restless excited nights sleep.

The AKC hunt tests have three stakes. Junior, Senior and Master Hunter.

There were 42 entries in Junior.
Senior 33.
Master 37.

This particular Hunt Club - The Missouri Valley - have their own grounds which also contains a basic club room. As with the second hunt test that I observed three weeks later, due to ground restraints all stakes were separated, sometimes requiring long drives to neighbouring properties.

I was invited to sit between the two judges at the Master level test. In every test in the US there are two judges. It was hot hot hot. The hunt test committee had organised drinks, savories and a pop up tent over us. (This is normal for the US).

The line (or starting pegs) were in front of the judges tent. A series of holding blinds were in situ for competing dogs and their handles. The distance from the last holding blind to the line was approximately 20 feet. The collars and leads are taken off the dogs at the last holding blind (in senior and master) and the dogs are brought to the line.

The first test (series) that I observed was called TWO series. The first set up was a double mark with a dry pop. The handler after retrieving both marks then proceeded to another line for the blind, approximately 10 feet away. The handlers carried with them a fake gun. The gunners in the field shot at the marks, one of which was a flyer (live bird), duck calls by the gunners preceeded both throws.

The main differences, made very clear to me, was in the US, dog are not expected to mark a bird they did not see. In AKC hunt test as in field trials, the handler does not shoot at the birds, they have gunners which blew a duck call, threw the bird and then shot. The order of mark pick up is completely up to the handler in the US, in both hunt tests and field competitions. Order of mark pick by the judges are called blinds!!!!!!!

Nearly all the dogs picked up the birds. After the first and second series the judges confer together and select dogs that in their opinion, should be invited back for the next series.

Before I leave off for now, the other major differences, in the dogs that I observed is that if a mark is not retrieved cleanly a single cast is allowed only.

On blinds if a dog does not stop on the whistle it will not be invited back to the next test.

The dog must make forward movement towards the blind with every cast (ie calling the dog forwards a few steps is a no no).

Handlers are allowed to speak to the judges and ask questions if they in doubt of bird placement.

Blinds are marked with orange ribbon,as in the US they feel they are testing the dogs ability not the handlers ability of remembering exactly where the blinds are.

In the US there are no double rises, as every training concept taught to their dogs is aimed at a dog not returning to an old fall.

Dogs are placed in locations where they have the advantage of observing marks.

I hope I have not bored you to sleep already. I will finish off for now, and if you would like, return tomorrow to continue.

I feel as if I have been typing forever and I have only explained two setups. I have about 30 to go!!!!!

[Jason Ferris]

Hi Julie

Thanks for the first installment. I'm sorry if you were embarrassed by me bringing this thread into a post of its own. I, for one, am very interested in your experiences.

It seems like there are also some things about the way hunt tests are managed in the US which could be considered in our trial rule review here.

Cheers, Jason.

[Julie Cramond]

Jason,

I was not so much embarassed but humbled. I would much rather read of other peoples point of view than my own. Both Bob Tawton and Geoff Cole could add their views as well.

I suppose I should have started with the junior test, but as I was working down, from Masters I began my story from my first observations which were Masters..

The second setup which consisted series 3 and 4 was a water triple with a blind along the bank.

The cover was quite high, the water deep but the handler and dog again were positioned at the line with a clear view. I wish I could draw diagrams for you. Tonight I will try my best to take photos from my various videos, if you like, and learn to post photos!!!!!

The dogs handled the water marks well with only a few loose hunts especially on the long bird. The blind was very interesting, it was along the bank approximately 40 yards only from the handler.

From what I observed and different hunt trialists explained to me is that hunt tests are set up with the view of testing a dog where it does not naturally want to go. A few dogs wanted to enter the water first, not follow the bank. Quite a few handles (casts) were required on this blind.

I went next to observe the junior test, as the second test in Masters was being continued.

The junior test amazed me. It looked so easy (as generally LOL all tests look until we actually do them ourselves).

In junior hunt test the handlers are allowed to heel their dog to the line with a flat collar and lead. They are allowed to keep the lead on the dog until released by the judges (no score difference for steady dogs and at an entry fee of $65.00 I did not see one handler, chance it). What I mean by released as that in the US the handler lifts their arms a little to indicate to the judges that they are ready, not like us Australian's who indicate that we are ready by closing the gun.

The cover in the junior was pretty bland. The birds were thrown in light treed cover. When the dog retrieved the first mark, again, as in Masters, the handlers relocated and another mark was thrown (this was considered series two). I thought it was a great idea to combine the tests in this way, as it saved time and more tests could be completed in a series.

The water test in Juniors was in a non cheaty situation, except if the dogs really cheated the water and ran quite a distance around the water. Some I noticed swam to the bird but returned via the bank. The junior was a lot of fun for the competitors. Generally in juniors there are a lot of show dogs just having a fun time with their amateur handlers.

Then I went off to observe the senior hunt test. The diffficulty of the tests between junior and senior absolutely astounded me. The land set up in the senior that I observed was a walk up, a mark which included a dry pop with a diversionary bird, and a blind. The cover was also very thick and very similar to an Australian trial. As the dogs were coming to the area where the walk up could be observed, many failed to see the bird due to the dogs heeling disobedience.

Interestingly all I spoke to the US agreed that US tests are judged in the field not at the line.

The line manners thus that I observed in the hunt tests would definitely not win in Australia.

I will start with my descriptions, of the field trials tomorrow (with photos I hope). They are a different ball game altogether.

Hope this makes sense. Please feel free to ask any questions as I know I have missed so much in my descriptions, but one thing I am not is a journalist.

[Kirsty Blair]

Hi Julie,

Thank you so much for the time you have put into this. I'm really enjoying reading it. Forgive my ignorance but.... what's a "dry pop"?

Kirsty

[Julie Cramond]

Kirsty - right name I hope this time,

A dry pop is when a shot is fired but no bird is thrown.

Julie

PS Do not feel ignorant. It took me hundreds of hours on the net to work out what the hell they were referring to in their descriptions. ie indented memory flyer. LOL.

[Kirsty Blair]

Hi Julie,

What's the purpose of the dry pop? And what's an indented memory flyer? (This could go on forever!)

Kirsty

[K Normanl]

A dry pop sets up the blind.

An indented memory flyer is a triple with the outside (long) birds being dead and the middle (shorter, indented) bird being a shot flyer. Since the indented bird is a flyer and shot first or second in the progression of marks, it becomes a memory bird.

If you were at the line, the progression could be (from left to right):
1) long dead memory bird (100 meters),
2) short shot memory flyer (60 meters),
3) long dead "go" bird (125 meters).

The last bird down is refered to as the "go" bird and is usually picked up first. Flyers are tough in this instance. Think about it...dog sees a dead bird thrown, then a live bird pops up flapping and quacking and is shot, then another dead bird is thrown. What bird do you think draws the retrievers interest the most and erodes the memory of the other two dead birds?

[Julie Cramond]

Thanks again for your input, Cat.

I enjoy the way that in the US, every concept has a name.

You have to remember here in Australia the judges select order of pick up not the dog/handlers, so every bird, especially in All Age, is a memory bird. We do not have honours in Australia, but test steadiness by the handler leaving the dog in a hide, handler proceeding to designated line, firing a dry pop and after showing dog is steady, call dog to heel.

Commonly a blind has to picked up first, before the already sighted marks.

By reading your message, I am once again reminded that I have not added any more of my US experiences. I shall endeavour to do so in the near future.

I think it would be wonderful at the end of the July seminar for Becky Eckett (as an experienced AKC hunt test judge) to set up a few US hunt tests ie junior, senior and masters.

[Jason Ferris]

Hi Julie

A hunt test demo sounds like a great idea. I'd be happy to chance it with my dog!

Cheers, Jason.