importing

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importing

Postby Dale Marshall » Tue 03 Dec 2013 3:15 pm

importing April 2014- fox red Irish bitch from FTCH Tweedshot Trimble of Lettergreen and Rosie Rhoda of Lettergreen, genetically clear , will be breeding in September/October 2014 to imported semen FTCH Delfleet Neon Of Fendawood - also chocolate bitch arriving May 2014 from the USA out of GRHRCH Rouxs Blazin Chocolate Thunder- HRCH Baby Blue,s Chocolate Passion , the sire Possibly the best chocolate in USA history-- genetically clear. Will be mated to imported semen( deciding English or UK)
Any enquiries please email dale@hydralink.com.au
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Re: importing

Postby Peter and Helen Eley » Thu 12 Dec 2013 11:47 am

What an interesting enterprise.
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Re: importing

Postby brettdavidson » Tue 28 Jan 2014 11:43 pm

Hi Dale,

Why don't you import the bitches over in whelp? now that there is only 10 days quarantine it is easy to organise. then use the semen as a 'plan B'

cheers brett
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Re: importing

Postby Peter Betteridge » Thu 30 Jan 2014 8:49 pm

good luck with your enterprise Dale
however i am surprised by your comment that a GRHRCH would be possibly the best chocolate in US history It is a title that isn't even recognized by the american kennel club and from the first hand information that i received last year a dog with those UKC qualifications may not even be up to our all age standard
there is a chocolate running presently in the USA and canada called ammo which is a Canadian FTCH AFTCH and american FC AFC and qualified for the 2013 USA national plus many many more american chocolate FC s
a good dog is never a bad colour and i suggest u save yourself a lot of hassle and investigate some of the wonderful american bloodlines that we already have in this country
there is a dog in the ACT that i have competed against and that i greatly admire that is bred from a NFC x FC AFC breeding and is already a RTCH in australia that would be my first port of call if i had a quality bitch and was looking to breed
there is also a superb breeder in melbourne who has gone to a lot of trouble to source the best american bloodlines and import quality semen she has even travelled over to the states and seen for herself first hand
anyway just my opinion and good luck whatever u decide
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Re: importing

Postby Garrick Bridges » Fri 31 Jan 2014 11:09 am

Hi Dale,
I don't believe I know you but wanted to say 'Good on you' for having a vision and pursuing it. I think anyone who is prepared to commit to the time and financial expense of importing quality dogs needs to be commended. The potential benefit for the breed in this country is huge.

Regards,

Garrick
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Re: importing

Postby Gareth Tawton » Sun 02 Feb 2014 11:10 am

Hi Brett
The theory of bringing a bitch in whelp is great but the practicalities are much more difficult. Trying to find a quality bitch old enough to breed from that someone is willing to sell is hard enough. If they are willing to sell her the price is going to be considerably higher than the purchase price of a pup. Now choose a sire from the other side of the world and get that all organised without seeing the dog or bitch first hand. Timing is also crucial as the titre test blood draw has to be 180 days before importation but the bitch can't be more than 30 day pregnant at time of importation. Now you have to wait and hope the bitch comes in season at the right time the mating is successful and the bitch travels well. If something goes wrong and the bitch isn't pregnant who now pays for the board while you wait for her to come in season again? Get the picture!

Having said that if all goes well and you get 6 -8 pups then per animal it is much cheaper than just buying a pup and importing it.

Myself along with a group of like minded triallers have formed a syndicate to bring a bitch to Australia in pup. Hopefullywe will have both a pup each and a brood bitch available for future matings. By forming a syndicate we have substantially reduced the financial risk for all.

In my experience you can import a quality pup from the US from between $11000 and $14000 I suspect if you had the right contacts in the UK the costs would be similar. The cost of bringing a bitch in whelp is more like $20,000 but hopefully you get a bunch of pups. What if you get only 1 or 2?????

I commend Dale in his initiative. Over the years we have had several imported working bred Labs have a significant impact on the trialling scene in various ways. Kadnook kennels had a huge amount of success with pups from their Scottish import. Jack Lynch and Karl Britton have done well with English blood lines, Maggie Hankinson has some lovely Irish based dogs. While Geoff Cole in the past and Julie Crammond more recently have had success with US based dogs. I am sure as the genetics get blended over the years with some of the quality lines in Australia the working Lab in Australia will be in good hands.
The upside for your average trialler and duck shooter will be a much wider choice of breeders of working labs. It would also appear that all of the recent imports, thanks to advances in genetic testing, have excellent health clearances for things like EIC, PRA and CNM. The introduction of these"clean genetics" for want of a better word should also help improve the overall genetic diversity in Australia.
Well done Dale Good luck. Take it from me from first hand experience this is a very exciting and enjoyable exercise. There is no guarantee of success and the hard yards in training still needs to be done.

Gareth
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Re: importing

Postby brettdavidson » Sun 02 Feb 2014 2:15 pm

costs for my UK FTW bitch that came over in whelp was around $18,000-$20,000 all up. I found that the quarantine stations here had a good turn around and could be booked with about 3-4 weeks notice. so when my bitch came into season that was when I booked the place in eastern creek. so she travelled out at about 2.5 weeks pregnant. keeping in mind that last year dogs had to do 30days quarantine. she was home with 2.5 weeks to settle and whelp. I got three healthy pups sired by a UK FTCH out of UK FTW. worth it for me. She arrived in Oz a week short from her original rabies vaccine.

The only reason why I imported in whelp was because "the stars all lined up". I would have quite happily imported her over empty as I have the stud dogs here. would I do it again? Sure but it wouldn't I would not be relying on pups. A lot of factors can go wrong, reabsorbing pups etc... I believe that with aqis introducing 10 day it should now be easier to import bitches over pregnant.

I would rather gamble importing bitch than trying an AI. importing semen is almost as expensive as importing a physical dog. plus all the vetting of the stud that required before importing.
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Re: importing

Postby Dale Marshall » Tue 04 Feb 2014 6:39 pm

Thanks for the replies and the comments, much appreciated and taken on board, to Peter, I never stated what discipline I was referring , the dog is a hunt test dog and yes you may be right but the dogs have to complete the tests that are set, miss and your out. I have been to the states and watched field trials and hunt tests we don't require dogs to run 500 meter blinds. So the reason I have gone the way I have is train ability , we all want hard going dogs but we also want good health, brains , a nose and a great companion that be calm around us. Some of the field trial dogs are very hot, great dogs with someone that can handle them, yes there are many people in Australia that have and are importing and I commend them, myself having a pup from Red that I am very happy with. I am studying genetics and have a few friends that have Masters in genetics that I rely on. Prefixes are built on competition and top trainers can make average dogs very good on paper, 2013 hunt test national had over 700 entrants we had about 60 . Maybe some don't rate the hunt test fraternity, their choice.
I know the dog Ammo, it's a bitch and I know the owner of two of her pups- Buddy (chocolate) Scooter (fox red) both stud dogs and top trial dogs, so I do my homework. Eic has been a problem in this country for many years and where did this disease come from, USA , why because people wanted faster big running dogs that can be trained by a collar to run a straight line, no nose but that can be handled to sit on a dime, genetically modified to do this, the bitches I have purchased are genetically as good as I can find, maybe not the best around but what I chose. Bitches carry about 60-70 percent of the genes, ( so I am told) So what your bitch lacks can be enhanced by a good stud. Gareth and his syndicate are importing- why? Because they are enhancing the breed. Anyone thinking they will make money out of the venture is dreaming.
The Irish bitch,s sire won the Irish Championship a month ago so I feel I did my homework correct on that one, time will tell and I wish Gareth and other importers all the success for their efforts. Also the dogs I am bringing in will be trialled, successfully or not this year in Tasmania, so a win in Tassie probably doesn't count in some peoples eyes, but they are judged on their merits and the runs are as difficult as any other state.
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Re: importing

Postby Peter Betteridge » Tue 04 Feb 2014 7:33 pm

hi Dale please dont think i am having a go at u because that was never my intention
like the others i applaud your efforts and wish u well
i merely pointed out that u stated "the sire Possibly the best chocolate in USA history-" i think u are misled in this regard there have been hundreds of chocolate FTCHs in US history who are all trained to a much much higher level than even the all time best GRHRCH which is a title not recognized by the american kennel club
also your view of american field trial dogs is erroneous in my opinion game finding ability and train-ability are paramount I can tell u first hand that they make terrific pets and and to insinuate that they do little other than run lines and have no natural ability is total rubbish
At a recent seminar i attended i was told to my face that the standard of the dogs that did the demos was on a par with advanced field trial seminars in the states and the demonstrating dogs were trained to a level well in advance of what is required to complete a master national and in fact would be heavily favoured to win qualifying stakes at field trials
our trial requirements are different to the Americans and yes we need an uncomplicated type of dog that doesn't require a PHD in dog training to be successfully trained and trialled
julie crammond has researched this very thoroughly and u would profit from having a chat to her ,
i would like to point out that we already have much of the best that the americans have to offer and if u can bring into the gene pool dogs of a similar standing u will have done the breed a very big favour
good luck
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Re: importing

Postby Dale Marshall » Tue 04 Feb 2014 9:42 pm

Hi Peter, don't worry I am not offended and you have your opinions and I respect that but I have been to Us field trials and hunt tests as well as field trials in the Uk and Scotland, Us field trials are very professional and usually dogs are run by pro trainers, they need success with dogs to pay the bills. My point is 99 percent of these trainers use collars to teach a dog to avoid pain . Sit burn- back burn - over burn- conditioning the dog to avoid pain and handle pressure.
It is not natural for a hunting dog or retriever of any breed to do that. to run a blind or run a mark on a string line for 300 yards with that method they could teach a kelpie or a terrier to run a line.
The reason they started hunt tests was to get back to more to a simulated hunting situation and the average earner could compete with their dogs. ( what direction are retrieving trials going in this country- distance- precision- control, let you answer that)
You may have Mike Lardy dvd,s or any other Us trainer DVDs , why is every field trial dog have a collar on ?
The hunt test dog trainers use collars as well, so are UK dogs the better dogs because they have to use their nose, have to run past a dead bird and hunt the winged bird first. Be steady waiting their turn off lead.
Great debate but it is a personal choice and realistically it will get back to who can train a dog the best, if the dog has the desire and is healthy the trainer will enhance its strengths.
My aim is to import genetically clear dogs that look like labradors, natural retrievers that are a pleasure for the owner to have around, trialling is a minority in all of the Australian states, there were 950 plus licensed duck shooters in Tas last season and about 15 triallers. Knowing all of them, possibly 5 or 6 actually use their dogs duck shooting occasionally. Sorry Paul you are the exception lol
Triallers state you can't use a trial dog field shooting it will ruin them, why is that? Do you shoot ducks and quail over your dogs, another debate to arouse people's thoughts . But I guarantee you I will enjoy the SA , Tas duck opening with my mates and their dogs some triallers but mainly shooters. Last week we put 15 through the Wit test at my house, a bonus for Tas to boost the numbers. Interesting to know how many triallers have completed the test especially when ducks are used at trials, a lot of work for a few people for all to enjoy natural game with their dogs.
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Re: importing

Postby Peter Betteridge » Tue 04 Feb 2014 10:21 pm

dale u have some strange ideas about trials A lot of Australia's most prominent triallers hunt their dogs
the training method is irrelevant and u certainly couldn't train too many non retrieving breeds to run lines well whatever method u employed
how well your dog performs comes down to how well u teach how much time u are willing to invest and how much talent your dog has
u seem to think that american dogs don't use their nose where ever did u get that idea from?????????????
U also seem to have a strange idea of where our trials are heading our runs are capped at 150 meters and in no way shape or form resemble any other country's competitions that i know about
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Re: importing

Postby Gareth Tawton » Thu 06 Feb 2014 12:08 pm

Dale and Peter

You both may have missed a couple of important points. The hunt test scene was established by people disillusioned for one reason or another with the field trial scene (in australia we have WAGGA and NSRT). They were not disillusioned with the dogs. The so called hunt test dogs where bred from field trial stock and as the generations pass they now have hunt test titles not field trial titles. The genetics are still basically the same. I have seen some lovely so called hunt test and field trial dogs equally I saw a few poor ones as well. The suggestion that dogs from one style of trial to the other are better or worse is crazy. Equally to suggest one needs a different style of training to the other is illogical. The genetics of the two scenes is becoming more and more intertwined. As an example the mother of my bitch has a master hunter title and competed in the master national. Her pups are working in field trials, hunt tests and of course in Australia. Tex's sire is a field champion and she has multiple national champions both amateur and pro in both Canada and the US behind her. In short the field trial dogs in her background have produced the hunt test dogs of today. Equally I am sure you will find some of today's hunt test dogs will produce field trial dogs of the future.


The hunt test scene is now being infiltrated by pro trainers who "specialized" in hunt test training. It would appear, like in just about every sport known to man kind, the standard in hunt tests is also rising considerably. In my multiple trips to the US I have not spoken to anyone or heard of any competitor in either event who does not use an e collar. The same goes for the hunters we met who do not trial but where attending seminars to become better trainers for their hunting. I would suggest you can buy a dog from any country in the world. Some are good and some are crap. I am positive that the majority of people who spend the considerable money to import a dog into australia will have done some serious research to get a "good one".

To give you an idea of just how common and accepted the e-collar is in the US here is a story from my last trip with Garrick Bridges.

We pulled into the car park of the hotel to see a guy walking his two GSP's in the car park. Of course we stopped him to say Hi. Probably more because both dogs had an e-collar on, he had the hand piece around his neck and was carrying a shotgun while wearing typical shooting clothing. It turned out he trains his dogs himself has no interest in trials and had spent the day shooting on a local game reserve (pheasants). He could not believe that people in Australia would train a dog with out an e-collar.He had no interest in a dog running 400 yard straight lines or stopping on a dime. He wanted a great hunting companion. After a great conversation he then proceeded to walk into the hotel and up to his room with his dogs, gun and e collar in full view. The other guests and hotel staff did not bat an eye lid!!!

Personally I think it will be wonderful to see in a few generations time in Australia a pup that has titles from the UK US Canada and Australia behind it. A dog bred for its healthy body, excellent temperament and working ability. Lets hope some misguided prejudice against a person, dog, training style, trialing style or country of origin doesn't prevent this from happening.

Dale good luck in your endeavors and good on ya for having a go.

Gareth
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Re: importing

Postby Dale Marshall » Thu 06 Feb 2014 3:16 pm

Hi Gareth, i agree with you totally and at no stage was i referring to this dog or that dog being better or worse than another, what i was referring to was , the hard running field trial dogs or hunt test dogs would vary rarely ever be able to achieve the precision runs they do over the longer distances to what is required without using the collar, using the collar and the control the Americans have, can put a dog on the (spot) with little nose. Those that have grown up and hunted their dogs would understand when referring to (nose) it is hunting the area and how good its nose is. Maybe i should have explained in more detail.
Speaking to Lonny Taylor (Pro Trainer)who is training my dog before she is eligible for export about the difference between Field Trial dogs and Hunt Test dogs and he stated nothing much in the dogs, it was the distance they competed over, he actually stated the hunt tests were getting extremely hard due to the different concepts and tricks judges were using. So i believe a 13 times GRHRCH is still a very good dog and his offspring are proving to be the same.
If i had issues with what country i preferred i doubt that i would own 2 English, 1 Irish and 1 American dog. plus a Scottish Kadnook descendant.
What i am aiming to do is to introduce new bloodlines to Australia and i certainly respect anyone else that has or is going through the import process. Commend your syndicate with importing a bitch in whelp,timing critical and a huge risk that i was not prepared to take. There are many Stud dogs in Australia that may well be suitable, but buying bitches is my priority, as i stated genetically 60-70% of the genes and traits come from the bitch.
Competitive wise the Stud may be the most accredited dog in the country, does not mean anything relating to breeding unless his off spring are successful and firstly healthy.
AI is risky and pup numbers are smaller plus the huge costs,but it also gives you that variation and options in what traits and genetics you require or desire.
Like breeding racehorses, calculated risk with no guarantees, Black Caviar was line bred, so there is hope.
Referring to EIC, i was pointing out that Labradors were developed to retrieve in cold and hard going environments for Duck shooters.
The Americans decided they needed big running dogs, lighter built and much faster and greater stamina. Genetically changing that line of Lab and in turn creating a disease in Labs that never existed.
After owning a dog with EIC and watching it collapse and drown is something i never want to experience again, so i will pursue the healthiest and genetically sound dogs with solid working pedigrees i can afford,
Regarding the strange ideas i have about trials, not sure on that one but people will see me at Nationals and State trials all over the country whether competing or not. Enjoying the friendships and the exceptional dog work from many , To be at Sale on holidays for the last National was very enjoyable ,i must be strange or have issues taking my partner to a dog trial holiday lol The runs were great and nothing much between the top dogs going in to the last run, Well done to you and Jim and all the helpers.
Cheers
Dale
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Re: importing

Postby Diane McCann » Thu 06 Feb 2014 5:48 pm

I commend anyone who spends the money to improve the genetic pool of our working gundogs, but sometimes I wonder if 'the grass is greener' mentality exists and people do not appreciate just what we already have here
Diane
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Re: importing

Postby Peter Betteridge » Sat 08 Feb 2014 5:12 pm

this conversation is beginning to dumbfound me
people are going on and on about training methods which is irrelevant to the topic of discussing importing of high quality bloodlines
My first hand opinion is that american dogs have a wonderful nose and are very easy and amenable to training whatever method u use
the point i was making to Dale is that if he is going to go to all the trouble of importing semen or a bitch into Australia i reckon it would behove him to investigate the strongest proven genetics the american s have to offer Both Gareth and bob Tawton's dogs come from very high profile kennels and boast a NFC x FC mating and a FC x MH mating both sires are very high profile and proven producers both my american dogs have high profile sires and dams with a lot of proven quality dogs behind them
a GHRCH is not even close to a high profile dog which doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to offer genetically but it simply isn't in the same league as the other dogs that have sired some of our recent imports
my american friends tell me that UKC events are a haven for mediocrity and are simply too easy to be able to separate the good from the exceptional that is why the yanks have field trials
i don't know a lot about the the British dogs but i have seen quiet a few of the imports that have been brought in over the last 20 years Some have been quiet good and some have been very disappointing
Jill and Wayne brought in a wonderful Scottish dog called monty many years ago who has made a lasting impression on the Labrador in this country
lets hope Dales GRHRCH mating has a positive impact on our gene pool but almost to a man all my american friends tell me they would only consider a FC xAFC or MH breeding or better
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