RETRIEVING AUSTRALIA FORUM

Ok, I've been in this game a while & my old girl was pretty reliable throughout her career, but......my two labs. often seem to have ants in their pants when it comes to staying seated in the hide on blinds. They might not always be stepping out of the hide, but sometimes just raising their butt off the ground, or creeping whilst still remaining in the sit position.

In training they are quite steady, although I have put both boys in situations where it is irresistable for them to move. My method has been to go back and enforce the sit/stay, then leave again. If, after several tempting shots, shouts etc, the dog has remained steady in the hide, I walk back to him and reward him.

This appears to be working with one of the dogs, so far. The other is as steady as a rock in training, but so excited and keen to do his retrieves in a trial, that he will often stand up or move a step from the hide, after I leave him, regardless of how firm I am with him.

Any suggestions on how to combat this with two very keen dogs ?
Before I go mad, will be helpful.

Kerry

Hi Kerry

I am by no means an expert but I have seen two very experienced trainers sacrifice a trial to go back and verbally correct a dog which was unsteady in the hide. Both dogs went on to be very reliable, presumable because they never learned a difference between training and trialling.

Cheers, Jason.

Dear Kerry,dogs are pastmasters in quickly learning to antcipate,we train them by lots of repetition which in turn develops anticipation, which I believe is what might have happened in the case of your dogs.To fix this I would sit/stay the dog in the blind, back off a few yards and then throw several dummies a few yards behind the dog whilst still in full view of each other.Still facing the dog,give your command for him to go back using your hand signal also.Continue to repeat this over and over for a minimum of one week, gradually increasing the distance between you, , still sending him back, eventually, when you can see that he has got the message,introduce the gunshot ,still sending him back every time.These should be just ten minute sessions then put the dog away for four hours or so.After a week of this walk out of sight as in a trial,(earlier in this info I should have mentioned)fire several shots not just the one,do this and then verbally command the dog to go back,by now you should be able to call him up occasoinally instead of sending him back,what we have done here is taught him to wait for instruction rather than anticipate.At a trial when you face this situation in the future,why not pretend to throw a dummy behind him in the blind, before you leave, just for insurance. (us judges) would not notice Regards, Jack.

Hi Kerry, I agree with Jason. If I had this situation come up in obedience/agility (where my experience currently lies), I'd go back and correct the dog, esp. seeing it happens only in a trial. There's always another trial The dog thus learns he can't get away with the behaviour in ALL situations. I'd even go so far, depending on the dog, as finishing the run there and not allowing the dog to perform a retrieve. The dog therefore learns there is a consequence for his action and does not get any reward.

Cheers

Joanne

Dear Joanne, with every respect to you, we are expected to do all our training and correction of a dog before we come to a trial, not during it.Besides, it does not look good.Regards, Jack.

Thanks for the replies.
Obviously when a dog moves out of the hide, I have been instructed by the judge to replace him, as most times I am out of the dogs sight at this stage. This, I do, and often than not, the dog then stays in position.

One dog is fine until he loses sight of me then has to rearrange himself. This one is gradually getting better with constant work at home. The other is just so eager to do the retrieve he hasn't the patience to sit for long.

I will try your method Jack and see how it goes. Thanks for the suggestion. The problem dog is the one that is super steady in training, but knows the trial situation and is hyped up. What I have been doing with him is going through the actions just prior to his turn on the run and it has had mixed results He has lost a few trials because of unsteadiness in the hide, which is so frustrating.

Kerry

Kerry Webster wrote:Obviously when a dog moves out of the hide, I have been instructed by the judge to replace him,

That is interesting Kerry - I don't recall ever having seen a judge ask a handler to put their dog back in the hide following a full break. I've seen plenty reach for their pen at that point though!

Good luck and thanks for posting a useful and thought provoking thread.

Cheers, Jason.

Hey Jack, thanks for that. Would expect that you have to have trained for this before trialling, but if I had a dog that I had worked with and it was a regular problem in trials, I'd be prepared to do what I said. I am not worried if it looks good or not, I'd rather fix the problem and then have a reliable dog for the future.

Training 'in the ring' in other sports is frowned upon too, but some judges, esp. if they know you are having a problem, will let you correct, and you can withdraw. Isn't there ANY scope for this in retrieving if someone has a problem in a trial situation only?

Cheerio

Joanne

Kerry,

Follow Jacks advice forget the rest The proof is in the pudding I don't think I have ever seen one of Jacks dogs break from the hide I know how I'll be working on the problem from now on.

Gareth

Jason,
When judging I, and I would believe most other judges in WA, would ask a competitor whos dog makes a full break from the hide BEFORE firing at a blind, to replace their dog in the hide before continuing with the run. (You are still pinged for the full break)I don't know if this is accepted practice in other states?
There has been occasion when a blind has been cast (thrown) and I have eliminated a dog for breaking from the hide and seeing the blind cast,as obviously the intended blind has now become a mark !
Cheers
Allan

Good point Allan. I guess most of indiscretions I have seen have been dogs breaking from the hide at the sound of the shot.

Cheers, Jason.

Hi Kerry,

Jack has provided you with an excellent way of overcoming your current dilemma, but have you considered what caused the problem in the first place? In situations of high excitement is the cause a lack of understanding by the dog of what SIT means, or what STAY means, or a bit of both? If you use these two commands then which command do you use when the dog moves? Is it NO, SIT, STAY or GET BACK IN YOUR PLACE (assuming the dog has been taught this command )? In my view, SIT, whether given verbally or with the whistle, has multiple meanings which include but is not limited to; stop forward motion, put your butt on the ground, stop doing whatever you were doing, do not move until I tell you otherwise, pay attention. In other words, SIT is a one word command that must be obeyed under all circumstances. If you accept this logic, then the command STAY is unnecessary and should be deleted from your vocabulary. For example, when Joe Vella takes Blackie to the Hide he gives the verbal command SIT to settle the dog in the appropriate position and then this is followed by a reinforcing whistle SIT before Joe leaves the dog. Now if the dog moves it is very clear to the dog which command has been broken and it is very clear to the handler which command should be given when correcting the dog.
One of the attractions of this approach is that the SIT command can be proofed in a wide range of situations likely to cause the dog to move e.g. the dog can be commanded to SIT before its kennel door is opened and it is invited to come out, you can SIT the dog immediately before and immediately after entering or leaving your vehicle, you can SIT your dog at meal time both during the preparation phase and before it is allowed to eat, you can heel your dog off lead and without altering your stride command SIT (voice or whistle) and the dog should comply and watch you wander off into the sunset. Perhaps one of the most challenging proofing tests is to SIT your dog near the Firing Point and leave it there while you or someone else works another dog. The list goes on and on and the benefits are wide ranging including in tight situations on that 250m training Blind.

Best of luck, RWT

Hi Rob,
Over excitement is definitely the cause for unsteadiness for one of the dogs. He knows Sit means stay there until further notice, but obviously I need to do some reinforcing of it.

Just thinking of when I go training, I say "Sit", then leave the dog, and have no problems with unsteadiness. I have been adding Stay, when at trials, so maybe I'm confusing the dog.

Both dogs have been conditioned to the "Sit" command, for coming out of the kennel, before a meal, getting out of the car etc. I have sat both near the F.P. whilst working another dog, and not encountered any problems with breaking from the position.

Meanwhile, I am putting in extra work with Jack's suggestion, and actually had success at the last trial with a solid stay in the hide.

Kerry

Jack, I want to thank you for your suggestion.

I am pleased to say that I have had 100% success with the younger dog since adopting your training method, and some degree of success with the other dog.

Also, some other competitors here have taken on your advice and have had very pleasing results with their dogs steadiness in the hide.

Thanks again,

Kerry

Hi Kerry
Glad that you have had some success,but, this problem will aways be lurking just under the surface and could emerge once more.I would repeat the remedy occasionally to keep it in check.A prominent dog handler in England once told me that the only dog guaranteed never to break is one that has been dead for 17 years and I believe him..
Kind regards, Jack.