Double Fall

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Double Fall

Postby Tony Rowland » Mon 19 Nov 2007 7:30 pm

Hi all

Just think of concepts that me and the grey mutt could work on over summer. One I came up with was a double fall.:shock: :o

MY QUESTION IS ABOUT THE STEP TO TECH?
1 put up a mark
2 send the dog.
3 Then stop it on route
4 other bird is thrown.(using something to point it out) gun/stick
5 Then cast to the first bird?

Other thing is how long to start and would you run both as singles before?

Maybe some of the more experienced handlers could help with the sequence and any other steps ?
Last edited by Tony Rowland on Mon 26 Nov 2007 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
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Re: Double Fall

Postby Prue Winkfield » Tue 20 Nov 2007 11:09 am

Good question Tony. Don't know if this is the best way but I am currently teaching Joy by throwing a dummy and then throwing a second and whistling her to stop at the time I throw it - all very short so far and works very well. Trying in water as it is so hot and she is much more inclined to swim for the second one presumaby as she can see it clearly and is not such a long swim as the first! Hopefully she will get so drilled in this that she wont need the command to go back to the original mark as think in trials you cannot always see the dog when the double fall goes up (I have seen this but don't know if it is the norm). Am sure there are others here that will have a more expert view than mine. Prue
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Re: Double Fall

Postby Robert Tawton » Thu 22 Nov 2007 3:47 pm

Training for Double Fall Retrieves.

In my view, a Double Fall Retrieve and a Two Bird Retrieve (see the current Rules under Definitions) involve similar concepts that your dog must understand and master in order to be successful. In the idealised world a dog should Stop to Shot (although this is not a specific requirement under the current Rules); it must remain committed to completing its original task despite the distraction of the second item of game being cast, and it must remember the location of the fall of the second item of game in order to retrieve it at a later time.

Stopping to Shot:
I believe that this is an important concept because, in general terms, dogs in motion do not mark the fall of game as accurately, or as reliably, as dogs that are stationary while the game is in the air. Whistling the dog to stop when the second item of game is cast is an approach adopted by many handlers. In my experience this approach is fraught with danger, especially in the case of a highly obedient dog. What often happens in the case of highly obedience dogs, is the moment they hear the whistle they spin and sit ( in the case of a Double Fall) or just sit ( in the case of a Two Bird) to focus on the handler. Often that focus is so intense that the dog becomes oblivious to everything else happening around it. One solution is to condition the dog to “sit to shot” and this is achieved by a process similar to that used to condition a dog to sit to a whistle blast. Armed with a gun and pocket full of primers and with the dog walking at heel and on a lead, you fire a shot immediately followed by the command to sit (whistle or voice) followed immediately by a jerk on the lead to ensure compliance. With enough repartitions over time you can progressively dispense with the sit command and/or the jerk on the lead as the dog learns to “sit to shot”. Still later and with the dog on a 20m lead, it can be taught to “sit to shot” while executing a recall. And still later by using a 20m lead, the dog can be taught to “sit to shot” while in transit to hand thrown dummy.

Commitment to the Original Task:
This is taught by establishing a Blind Retrieve consisting of a pile of dummies at a distance of approx. 90m. Run the Blind. Now position a thrower at a distance of approx 60m and offset from the line to the Blind by 5 to 10 m. The thrower should be set to cast in a direction away from the line to the Blind. Proceed as follows;
1. Cast a bird (or dummy) with the thrower and have the dog retrieve it. As soon as the dog completes the Mark Retrieve have the dog run the Blind.
2. Cast the Mark but have the dog retrieve the Blind before sending it for the Mark.
3. Send the dog for the Blind and cast the Mark as the dog is returning with the Blind (Two Bird configuration). Complete the Blind and then retrieve the Mark.
4. Send the dog for the Blind and cast the Mark while the dog is in transit to the Blind (Double Fall configuration). Complete the Blind then retrieve the Mark.

In subsequent training sessions, repeat the sequence outlined above, but position the thrower so that the line to the Blind is under the arc of fall for the Mark and still later position the thrower so that the cast is towards the line to the Blind with the dummy falling about 15m off the line to the Blind.
Once your dog is comfortable with and reliable on the setups discussed above, it will have no difficulty with executing a Double Fall Retrieve as mandated by the Rules. Incorporating the Blind Retrieve during the teaching phase helps establish level of control necessary for many tests including Double Fall Retrieves.

I am happy to field any questions.

BFN, RWT
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Re: Double Fall

Postby Graeme Parkinson » Thu 22 Nov 2007 6:59 pm

Tony,

An alternative method for teaching stop to shot (nothing wrong with using a number of methods).

I think double falls/two birds are a good examples of how the early lessons we teach a dog lead in to the more demanding tasks. To me teaching a dog to stop to shot is an extension of steadiness to shot, which leads into walk ups which leads to, eventually, stop to shot. If a dog knows nothing else but put it's bum on the ground when it hears a shot it will. I am not saying the dog will not need a correction when you move to double fall/two birds, it may, but it will understand.

Once a dog is steady, teach walk ups. Once the walk up is reliable then try doing a walk up but fire the gun first and throw the bird once the dog has sat. He will soon be sitting very quickly waiting for the bird to go. This is where my pup is now with this particular concept. He will have a lot more practice before I ask him to stop to shot for a two bird and then we will move to double fall.

Stop to fall is another thing you can teach exactly the same way as described above only don't fire the gun. When the dog is out running around throw a dumper have him sit as soon as he sees yuo throw it. Have a thrower set up so as you and the dog will pass it on your walk at an appropriate time fire the thrower and have the dog automatically sit.

Everything above helps make your pup reliably steady and sets him up for two birds and double falls.

Commitment to the Original Task: Do as Bob desscribed.

Graeme
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Re: Double Fall

Postby Gareth Tawton » Fri 23 Nov 2007 9:06 am

Tony,

It would be worth talking to Jack Lynch all his dogs have stopped to shot realy well. He might be able to give you some advice.

Gareth
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Re: Double Fall

Postby Tony Rowland » Sun 25 Nov 2007 8:18 pm

Hi all

Thanks to Bob and Graeme for their in site into their methods.
I wouldnt have thought about teaching sit to shot to a puppy, this is where the topend handlers have it over us mugs.
Thanks also to Prue, Gareth I will talk to jack.

tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
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