Confident Water Blinds

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Confident Water Blinds

Postby Teresa Parkinson » Tue 24 Feb 2004 3:23 pm

Hi everyone! As always, my mind is ticking over about something dog related. :lol:

I'd like to know how you set about getting consistently good, confident water blinds. Any tips - from basics through to advanced - would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Teresap
Teresa Parkinson
 
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Postby Julie Cramond » Wed 25 Feb 2004 11:09 am

Hi Teresa,

I hope your dental problem has resolved by now. I CERTAINLY hope you are well enough to attend the trial this weekend!!!

I know you and Wayne both love natural dogs, as we all do.

I used to think that a naturally high dog would transfer this desire onto water. I have seen some very high desire dogs with what I see as poor water attitude, even to the extent of not really wanting to swim to cool off after a hot training session.

I can only go on what I have seen and experienced myself. I still think there are natural water dogs. Dogs that do not care what is in front of them.

For example Cracker she did not care, BUT unfortunately due to my knowledge limitations I did not train her thoroughly enough. Stamp and Peppa is my humble opinion are natural water dogs.

You know as well as me how vital all the water drills are in training. Swimby being the number one drill. Man I love that drill.

Hopefully we can discuss this more on the weekend. All we do it talk training when we are together. LOL. Actually I think/discuss/worry more "about" training than actually doing it!!!!
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Wed 25 Feb 2004 11:28 am

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the good wishes. I am FINALLY on the mend :lol: and plan to be at the trial even if my dogs haven't been out of the backyard for the last week and a half!

I have been hard at work trying to find some good concept water (even something as basic as cross-water which is sorely lacking here!) and think I've finally found some I can have ready access to. However, a swim-by pond remains an issue. I may have to make do using more 'traditional' methods till I can convince the powers that be that we really do need to reshape our existing dam. :wink:

Looking forward to the weekend! See you there.

Teresap (who's finally experiencing some pain-free time and loving it!)
Teresa Parkinson
 
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Confident Water Blinds

Postby Robert Tawton » Thu 26 Feb 2004 10:50 am

Hi Teresa,

Your question is way too broad for me to develop a detailed response. I liken your question to the fellow who telephoned the other day and said, “I have a well bred 8 week old pup and would you please tell how to train it to win a National?” :D Without knowing exactly where you are in your overall training program and what sorts of difficulties you have experienced along the way and how you overcame them, I do not know what specific advice I might offer.

The following are generalised comments and observations that may be of some help.

1. A dog can not do something it had not been taught to do.
2. If a dog cannot satisfactorily perform an exercise in a controlled environment (the yard) it certainly will not perform in the field.
3. Just because a dog can perform an exercise in the yard does not guarantee a satisfactory performance in the field. All exercises taught in the yard must be transitioned into the field.
4. Dogs learn their lessons quicker on land than they do in water.
5. If a dog is not handling to near perfection on the land, you can be assured of a significant deterioration when the dog is working in water.

Teaching dogs to handle is a step-by-step process wherein the previous step becomes the foundation for the next step forward. For a variety of reasons, certain steps can or are inadvertently overlooked, or the handler decides “my dog doesn’t need to do that”. These courses of action inevitably lead to disappointment in tight competition when the dog fails due to the inherent weakness in its foundations created by these oversights.

With a focus solely on how to teach a dog to handle on the land, the following sequential steps are relevant:
1. Condition the dog to the whistle, “sit” and “come”.
2. Simple three handed casting games, including left and right hand back.
3. Force Fetch, stick fetch and stick to pile.
4. 4, 8 & 16 handed lining drills.
5. 4 & 8 handed casting drills.
6. Single “T”, double “T” , modified Double “T” and Run-by.
7. Walking baseball.
8. Lining and casting drills with diversions.

At this point you start to transition the skills mastered in the yard into the field through:

9. 3 leg pattern blinds.
10. Taught or memory blinds with and without diversions.
11. Field equivalents of lining and casting drills.
12. Simple cold blinds.
13. Cheating water MARKS.

You are now ready to teach your dog to handle in the water.

14. Swim-by
15. Stick to pile
16. Taught and memory blinds with and without diversions.
17. Walk around blinds.
18. Field equivalent of lining and casting drills.
19. Simple cold blinds with diversions.
20. Channel swimming.
21. Tune-up drills.

I hope the above all makes sense and I will be interested to hear your comments and/or of your progress.

Regards, RWT

PS I have just read Julie's most recent input and striving for and maintaining a good attitude at all times is an essential ingtredient, please refer to your Eckett notes.
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Thu 26 Feb 2004 12:42 pm

Thanks for your response Bob. I appreciate the time you've put into it. I must apologise for being a bit misleading with my question and in hindsight, I was remiss in not outlining the reason for my post from the outset.

I should point out then that I don't have any major issues with my dog at this stage of his training and, touch wood, haven't had any to date. The reason for posting this thread was to hopefully generate some helpful training hints for novice handlers on a concept which new trainers often find difficult to master successfully. I think most (if not all) would agree that good water blinds are highly regarded and in our current trialling climate, an absolute necessity if a dog is to be competitive.

In an endeavor to make this thread less generalized, here are a few specific questions which I think might cross the minds of novice trainers. Answers to any/all of these would provide a great resource for the future so I would encourage everyone to participate.

As far as the topic of confident water blinds goes, how is that confidence or attitude best developed during the transition from yard to field work, and then to cold water blinds? Whilst I appreciate that dogs vary enormously, the basic principles do apply.

If I was moving yard concepts into the field with a dog that had finished its basic training, what golden rules should I abide by?

Do you always use hot/warm blinds in training during the dog's transition phase? If not, how/when would you begin running simple cold blinds?

What method do you find works best at extending your dog in water on blinds?

If your dog shows a lack of confidence, what do you do?

In what ways can a lack of confidence or attitude manifest itself in training?

I could think of lots more but I think that's enough for now! :wink: My apologies for appearing long-winded and my thanks in advance to all who respond.

Teresap (who is always on a learning curve :lol: :lol: :lol:)
Teresa Parkinson
 
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Confident Water Blinds.

Postby Robert Tawton » Thu 26 Feb 2004 3:42 pm

Hi Teresa,

I gather from one of your earlier posts you are having trouble in trying to find suitable water for swim-by. Have you ever considered going to one of the many (so I am told) major irrigation channels in your area to a point near where the channel takes a right angle bend? The “back pile” would be established by throwing dummies directly across the channel. The left hand end (or right hand end as the case may be) is established by placing dummies at the water’s edge in the centre of the bend so that to a dog swimming down the centre of the channel towards the dummies, they would appear to be in the centre of the channel. The opposite end of the pattern would be established by using light cord, two three-star stakes, a mouse or rat trap and two metal rings. Using the cord, the metal rings and the stakes, construct an endless “flying fox” from one side of the channel to the other. Attach the mouse or rat trap to the “flying fox”. Now secure a dummy to the flying fox by slipping its cord under the spring of the rat trap. Finally, winch the dummy into position floating in the centre of the channel. Your dog will have no trouble pulling the dummy clear of the rat trap. If you cannot find a suitable bend in the channel then you will need two flying foxes.

Best of luck and kind regards, RWT
Robert Tawton
 
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Thu 26 Feb 2004 3:47 pm

Teresa,

I think a good starting point for anyone is to be thinking well in advance. A 16 week old puppy that gets some hand thrown dummies in the water could be given the opportunity to cheat water from day one. On ther other hand a well thought out hand thrown dummy might force the dog to return straight to the handler because of blackberries along the edge of the river (just an example).

In the early days I tried to setup Monty with water that would only allow the correct entry and exit from the water. This certainly helped build good habits for further down the track. He never learnt to cheat water. The same can be said of not doing cheating single marks until the dog can be handled reliabley. That way you can handle if he does cheat the water and therfore he wont get bad habits

I also think extending the length of swims on marks progressively prevents young dogs from finding water blinds daunting. If he wont swim that distance on a mark how the hell do you expect it on a blind :?

A lot of people forget the big advantages most Australian trainers have over any professional. We start with our pups at 7 weeks not 7 months. A lot can be done in those first 6 months to help establish good habits.

Good Training,

Gareth
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Thu 26 Feb 2004 4:05 pm

Thanks Bob. That's a very clever idea.

I will have a chat to Wayne about rigging up something similar to what you've suggested. There are definitely a couple of channels nearby that I would consider wide enough for this exercise but I've never been able to work out how I could use them.

There's that ingenious engineering mind working overtime again! :lol:

Gareth,

Your reply bounced up almost simultaneously with your dad's! Is there some sort of mind-meld thing going on here???? :wink:

As you say, instilling good habits in young pups can make the job so much easier. And that job is no doubt made easier still if you have a plan of where you're heading right from the outset!

The difficult thing for those just starting out is to keep/have in mind what their ultimate goal is - and if that goal is to progress beyond Novice to Restricted or even All Age, then even play/puppy training has to be carefully tailored to that end goal.

Having said that, it should all be fun! :D If you don't come away having enjoyed it, I think there's something seriously wrong...just my thoughts on the matter. :cry:

Teresap
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Postby Mark Sewell » Fri 27 Feb 2004 9:53 am

Hi Robert

I'm curious as to whether you use white flags as pile markers in your T work. I myself have tried to limit the use of such aids to concepts where diversions are involved as in the four phase diversion drill, although I do know that many people do use flags for earlier work.

Regards

Mark
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Postby Mark Sewell » Fri 27 Feb 2004 10:48 am

Hi again

Back onto the subject of suitable water for teaching the swim-by. I had to make do with the use of one end of a narrow lake. Naturally, to teach both the left and right swim-by I had to change the side of the lake on which I placed the back pile of bumpers but I found it to work sufficiently. I guess some generalisation of the concept may have occurred (due to the dog always exiting at the same location) however it's application to simple cheating water singles went very smoothly.

Mark
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Use of Flags

Postby Robert Tawton » Fri 27 Feb 2004 12:06 pm

Hi Mark,

Mark in answer to your question; yes, I do use flags for identifying the piles in T work, Swim-by and on early cold blinds. My flags are even more sophisticated in that they are half black and half white (and about 12 inches square) so that they are visible against all backgrounds. In early cold blind work they serve a useful function in that as the dog is nearing the destination is will see and recognise the flag as a marker. Because you are trying to teach a dog what a cold blind is all about (especially in the transition phase), the last thing you want to do is to have to box the dog around the destination, while it tries to locate the blind. As the dog’s confidence builds there become a point when it is no longer appropriate to use flags.

BFN, RWT
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Postby Mark Sewell » Fri 27 Feb 2004 2:00 pm

Thanks very much for your response Robert. It's greatly appreciated.

Mark
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Fri 27 Feb 2004 2:22 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for suggesting another idea for swim-by water. I don't have any lakes with the sort of feature you describe (at this stage) but I might be able to find a comparable channel. Time to put the old thinking cap on again.

Mark, I can't recall ever meeting you. Are you trialing a dog at the moment? Sounds as though you're training hard so I was wondering when you plan to compete.

Teresap - only an hour to go and I'm off trialing for the weekend! :lol:
Teresa Parkinson
 
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Location: Teal Point, Victoria, Australia

Postby Mark Sewell » Fri 27 Feb 2004 3:00 pm

Hi Teressa

Yes, I am new to the retrieving game. Jag and I completed our first Beginners Test and Novice Stake in November of last year and at this stage am planning to compete again at the Flat Coated trial in May. However, this is pending on my ability to contain the young fella's tendency to over run when in an excited state. Slowly making in roads though I think!

I'm actually going to be at the Golden Club's trial tomorrow, possibly manning a thrower in Restricted so I will meet you then.

Thanks for your interest Teressa and have a safe trip :D

Mark
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Fri 27 Feb 2004 3:08 pm

Hey Mark, I gather that means you're a GR owner?

Look forward to meeting you tomorrow. Be sure to make yourself know, won't you? Just look for a silver 4x4, a white pop-top with a blue stripe, 2 labs - a blackand a yellow - and a crazy blonde woman hanging onto them!

Teresap
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