Over Running Marks

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Over Running Marks

Postby Robert Tawton » Wed 03 Mar 2004 2:18 pm

Hi All,

The following is a copy of some material I prepared in response to a specific question;

Dogs that have a strong tendency to over-run marks may do so for a variety of reasons:

a) They have defective eyesight.

b) They have learned to rely primarily on their nose to locate marks, rather than relying on their eyes supported by their nose.

c) They suffer with an over-exposure to challenging marks before they have been taught to handle. Dogs in this situation often get into trouble and because the handler has not yet developed the handling skills, the dog is left to work it out for itself! This in turn fosters a high level of independence in the dog (which at times is counter productive to later teaching the dog to handle) and an attitude that “if I run around long enough I will find the bird.”

d) For reasons I can’t readily explain , but have observed on many, many occasions, dogs coming out of the yard program seem to temporarily switch off their noses such that if they cannot physically see the object to be retrieved they have great difficulty in finding it. Luckily this is a passing, although frustrating, phenomena.

With Reason a) little can be done other than to understand and work with and around the dog’s limitations or alternatively get a new dog.

Reason b) – conventional wisdom indicates that dogs should be taught to Mark by running the dog down wind (tail wind) and in so doing encourage it to use its eyes rather than its nose. If dogs are continually worked on marks that are into the wind, especially as young dogs, they may start to rely solely on their nose and the scent cone to locate the mark.

Reason c) is self explanatory and a trap into which many beginners unwittingly fall. Utility Gundog owners can also expose themselves to this difficulty by taking their dogs hunting quail etc before they have developed the necessary level of control.

Reason d) is the most frequently observed cause of the problem, which in the first instant can be minimized or eliminated by continuing to do lots of easy therapy marks, singles and doubles, while ever the dog is in the yard program.

Specific remedies include;

a) Doing Marks that are into the wind to encourage to dog to use its nose. Successes that come quickly and without “big hunts” are great confidence builders.

b) Position a thrower to cast a fixed trajectory and repeat this Mark many times, but on each occasion from a different Send Point. This approach encourages a dog to run to a “place” and to hunt out that place in order to affect the retrieve. In changing the Send Point, I like to randomly alter the length of each retrieve, as opposed to always lengthening (or shortening) successive runs as I move in a full circle around the fixed cast. Helpers like this exercise as they don’t have to move!! :lol: :wink:

c) In this exercise the Send Point remains constant and the thrower is continually relocated after each retrieve. With the thrower set to cast from left to right and back at 45 degrees - complete the first retrieve. Then relocated the thrower to the point where the first dummy landed and with the same left to right and 45 degree back cast - complete the second retrieve. Now relocate the thrower to the point where the second Mark landed and continue repeat the procedure. As each run moves in a clockwise ever expanding spiral you will eventually reach a point where the length of the run approaches maximum distance. Once you have reached this point you set the thrower up to continue to cast from left to right, but now with a 45 degree inward angle. You will thus produce a clock-wise decreasing spiral.

d) This exercise comes from Bill Eckett. From a fixed Send Point imagine a line extending 150m. With a thrower position left of this line and at a distance of 150 m cast a Mark to land on the imaginary line - complete the retrieve. Now move the thrower such that the length of the retrieve is shortened by 30m and it is located to the right of the imaginary line with a cast such that the dummy lands on the imaginary line – complete the retrieve. Continue to relocate the thrower so that it is alternatively to the right or left of the imaginary line with the dummies always landing on the line and each retrieve is 30m shorter than the previous one. For dogs that tend to hunt short, this drill can be used but in reverse i.e. each retrieve is 30m longer than the one before.

e) Imagine a thrower located in the centre of a square. All retrieves are done as single mark retrieves. The first bird cast is towards the near left hand corner of the square. The second bird cast is directed to land at the mid-point of the left hand side of the square. Next to land on the far left hand corner. Next to land on the far right hand corner. Next to land at the mid-point on the right hand side and lastly the front right hand corner. This is the recommended order for dogs that tend to over-run their marks while the reverse order (start by throwing to the far left hand corner) is more suited to dogs that tend to hunt short. The drill also teaches dogs to work through old falls.

I trust this all makes sense and I am happy to field questions.

BFN, RWT
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Postby Kirsty Blair » Wed 03 Mar 2004 2:48 pm

Hi Bob,

Thanks yet again for a very detailed response. :D

I have had this problem with my goldy - mostly, I believe, due to over-excitement on the dog's behalf (and perhaps the handler :wink: ). For a dog to accurately mark the fall of the bird it must have its brain, as well as its eyes, switched on. All the drills you describe not only shape the dog's ability to judge distance but also have the added benefit of re-inforcing calm, thinking behaviour in the dog (and, yet again, the handler!).

I have also found that sending the dog too quickly, without giving him the opportunity to "lock in" the position of the mark causes similar problems. A very difficult habit to get out of if you're a typically nervous handler at the firing point :roll: !

Thanks again, Bob.

Kirsty
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Postby Brian McMillan » Wed 03 Mar 2004 10:45 pm

Thanks, Bob for this very informative, helpful post. I can't say my dog has ever had this problem on a consistant basis, every now and then, maybe one out of a hundred times, he'll over run a mark.

I have not run many dogs, but I have observed this phenomenon in my dog when he was a youngster. Whenever we got to a new field, he would sucumb to the lure of the field, run past the mark and have a gay old time exploring the new sights, sounds and smells of someting new. Fortunatley, picking up the mark has become the most important thing to him.

Thanks again for sharing this Info; I'm certainly gong to file it away for future reference.

Brian
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Thu 04 Mar 2004 9:54 am

Quite correct Bob on the Utility Gundog point - unfortunately a high degree of independence and initiative (don't know whether dogs really have that) is highly prized in working Utility Gundogs. As long as the dog is roughly under control judges much prefer that to a slow methodical worker even though the latter often win through the former high fliers being 'out of control'! Don't think there would be a market for breeding slow methodical GSPs which would be ideal for retrieving trials.
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Over-running Marks

Postby Robert Tawton » Thu 04 Mar 2004 3:09 pm

Hi Prue,

I am puzzled by your response. Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough. In relation to Utility Gundogs, the point I was seeking to make is, if handlers choose to take their dogs out hunting quail before they can reliably stop the dog to whistle; for it will promptly respond to the “come in” whistle; is steady to shot; will take hand signals and deliver gently to hand; they will inevitably face the reality of the dog making mistakes and developing a level of independence that may become a barrier to establishing the control necessary to win a National. In the blink of an eye these mistakes can also become bad habits and then the handler faces the prospect of a lifetime of playing “catch up” and certain problems will never be eradicated. Cheating around water is the perfect example; dogs that learn to cheat can (with enough work) become reasonably reliable in water, but the problem will never entirely disappear!

From the previous Post, I do not know what would lead you to think that “slow methodical GSP’s which would be ideal for retrieving trials”. If that is the impression I created I’m sorry, as nothing could be further from the truth! I’m certain that Jack Thompson, Alan Donovan, Sam Haigh, Gareth, John Patterson, Jeff Martin, Westie Morris, et al, have all had quick dogs and at the same time achieved more than a modicum of success in Retrieving Trials. The only remaining question is, would any or all of these dogs been more successful if their initial teaching regime had been different? There is no doubt a quick dog, independent of breed, requires a handler with reflexes comparable with Peter Brock and/or Michael Diamond. Having owned several Formula 1 dogs, I can assure you that to give such dogs their head or to be able to control them, as the situation demands, gives you a buzz that is huge beyond description.

Perhaps it is this level of fun and challenge that has kept me in the sport for more than 30 years?

BFN, kindest regards, RWT
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Thu 04 Mar 2004 4:59 pm

Bob - we must have been at cross purposes but are you suggesting a dog should be trained to Restricted level before you go quail hunting? You mentioned somewhere else that a dog of 12 months could do most things - do you believe that to be true of dogs other than Labs? Please accept my apologies if I have offended any past and present GSP owners with my comments :oops: -it is not my intention to describe all past and present GSP RtChs as slow - I know they were and are not. However, I know I am not alone in believing that these dogs in today's competitive environment tend to do much better when they reach middle age and have slowed down a bit. Thus my thinking that if they started off slower, they would succeed faster. Personally I am waiting until Inca is about 7! The only person you mentioned(I stand to be corrected on this) who has competed successfully in the SE States in recent times is of course Sam and I think Bronco did his best work at quite an advanced age. It is great that you are such an advocate for the breed, it is a pity that you don't compete with one these days as I am sure you would do really well - it must get really boring training Labs all the time:P Prue
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Over-running Marks

Postby Robert Tawton » Thu 04 Mar 2004 10:10 pm

Hi Prue,

In response to your two questions; yes, I am suggesting that a dog should be trained to Restricted level (at least) before you take into a paddock to hunt quail and yes, I am confident that most individuals can be trained to this level, independent of breed, in 10 to 15 months. These views are largely based on personal experience.

Your observation about dogs performing more reliably as they reach middle age is absolutely spot on, but it has nothing to do with breed. You may be interested to note that the combined average age of the 84 dogs entered in the 1989 US Open National and the 97 entries in the 2000 US Open National is 6.3 years. Despite the passage of time and a significant change in the the ratio of bitches to dogs 1 : 3 in '89 to 1 : 2 in 2000 the average age for each event changed by less than 1 month.

BFN, RWT
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Over Running Marks

Postby Alan Donovan » Sun 07 Mar 2004 9:10 am

Hi Robert - I'm with you on this one!

A slow GSP is certainly not necessary for success in retrieving trials (or desirable while points are awarded for style, eagerness and action). The current RT CH GSP's in Australia are owned by John Pattison, Wendy Michalk, Dom Colasimone, Jim Hook and me (Sam Haigh's Bronco is still lost). None of these dogs have been slow. (And sorry if I left anyone out!)

The lack of success of GSP's in All Age trials in Victoria in recent years is a direct result of lack of interest in the breed by the top handlers, not because as a breed they are too fast or too slow. In Queensland the numbers of GSP's at All Age events has even been known to exceed the number of labradors. The success of any breed requires numbers! In recent times our Retrieving Dog of the year, and our state championship have both been won by (different) GSP's.

Due to the cost and time involved most of our GSP's do not compete interstate, but the one that has travelled the most - Sam Haigh's dog (one of the fastest) has been successful both here and "down Mexico way". It will be interesting to see how the Victorian labradors go in the National up here in September against a reasonable field of GSP's.

Cheers - Alan
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Postby Julie Cramond » Sun 07 Mar 2004 12:31 pm

Hi everyone,

Don't you think it is more common for a dog to hunt too short?

By kind permission I have been permitted to use extracts from an US successful amateur trainer's book in relation to the theory of dogs marking. If anyone is interested?????? Lots of typing.

As a computer dork I will have to wait until Andrew comes home and show me how to type into Word first and then transfer the file.
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Marking Too Long or Too Short

Postby Robert Tawton » Sun 07 Mar 2004 7:05 pm

Hi Julie,

I for one would be more than intersted in whatever you have on this subject.

From my experience, whether dogs hunt too short or too long depends, in many respects, on their earlier education. I would really hesitate to categorize one fault ahead of the other.
BFN, RWT
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Postby Julie Cramond » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:14 pm

I would like to thank Jack M Gwaltney, Jr., MD for his permission to use extracts from his book to add to the Australian Working Retriever Central Bulletin Board. Dr Gwaltney references were also included in Mike Lardy videos.

MARKING THEORY - Natural behavior and marking

Observing and going to fleeing or fallen prey is a part of the natural hunting behavior of predatory animals. This instinct is strongly developed in dogs, especially the retriever breeds in which it has been artificially enhanced by seletive breeding. While most retrievers are naturally proficient in observing and locating simple falls, skill in this activity can be further increased by the practice and experience associated with hunting and training. Accuracy in depth perception and skill in marking a particular type of placement can sometimes be observed to improve rapidly with practice in a single training session.

THE NEUROLOGIC BASIS OF REMEMBERING THE POSITION OF UNSEEN OBJECTS

Progress is being made in understanding how animals remember the location of unseen objects. In the language of the neuroscientist, this is called OBJECT PERMANENCE, that is knowledge of the location of an object even though it is no longer visible. In retrieving trials, we call that marking. Also there is now information on how movement towards an unseen object is guided. Having this capacity, is the basic neurologic requirement for retrieving a bird which has fallen into cover and can no longer be seen.

The capacity of object permanence comes fro mhaving specailised nerve cells in a part of the brain called the ventral premotor complex. Experiments in monkeys have shown that these visually responsive nerve cells keep tract of the location of previously seen objects after light is removed and the animal is in total darkness. Approximately 40% of these nerve cells are bimodal, that is, they respond to both visual and positional stimuli. They store a visual image and, at the same time, store information on the position of the various parts of the animal's body relative to its current location in space. Because these bimodal nerve cells react to both visual and positional stimuli, they synthesize both types of sensory input and provide information on the position of an object which has been seen relative to the position of the animal, The visual receptive fields are anchored to a part of the body such as the leg, and they move as that part of the body moves. They do not move when the eyes move but remain anchored to the body. Thus, they retain a mental image of the location of an object relative to the position of the different parts of the body and guide movement towards the object. Because of object permanence, they are able to do this even when the object is no longer visible.

Apparently retrievers have known this for a long time, at least those who win trials. If the above explanation is not entirely clear, ask you favorite RT CH who can undoubtably give a better and more complete explanation of how this works.

I will continue the theory tomorrow. 20 pages to GO. Instead I will add to tables at this time.

POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS FOR FAILURE IN MARKING ORTHER THAN POOR MEMORY.

DOG ASSOCIATED: Poor vision, poor motivation, illness or injury, perception based on expectation not experience (visual image).

TRAINER ASSOCIATED: Inadequate training (dog has not had enough experience). Incorrect training (testing not teaching (pressure), imbalance in training such as too many long or extra long marks or no variation in order of throw).

HANDLER ASSOCIATED: Incorrect handling leading to confusion.

_____________________________________________________________

FACTORS INFLUENCING THE DIFFICULTY OF MARKS

TERRAIN FEATURES:

- visibility

- contour

- cover and change in cover

- obstructions

- water

NON TERRAIN FEATURES:

- wind and wind direction

- distance

- spacing

- order of fall

- retirement of guns (US)

- live versus dead birds (US)? LOL

Sorry for any typing mistakes. I forgot to ask Andrew how to copy and paste. A girlfriend is also helping with the typing.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:30 pm

We are on a roll so I will keep going.

DIFFERENT METHOD OF MARKING BY HUMANS AND DOGS

Because the marking skill of retrievers has been raised to an artifically high level by training, they will often mark long and difficult falls with astonishing precison. Nevertheless, on average, a trained retriever's skill in marking cannot compare with that of the trained human. (Retriever handlers consciously or unconsciously learn to mark well during the training and handling of their dogs).

Julie - Gee my dogs mark beter than me!!!!!!!

Observation shows that one reason for this is that dogs and humans mark distant, fallen objects by a different process. Humans, when concentrating on a long mark (in imitation of a retriever doing a test), consciously keep their eyes fixed on the exact location of the fall as they advance towards it and until they reach it. Humans also take advantage of visible landmarks in the area to consciously construct a frame of reference for remembering the location of the mark.

Dogs, on the other hand, do not fixate on the exact location of a distant mark but instead look at the ground ahead as they run to the fall. When they reach the location where they expect to find the mark, their ears go up and they then begin a visual search for the object. This undoubtedly reflects the natural hunting behaviour of dogs in using their noses to follow a scent trail until the prey is sighted, at which time vision takes over to guide the pursuit. For retrievers to get from their point of departure at the handlers side to the location of a distant mark, since they do not continuously fixate on its location, must require a mental image of what they observed when the object to be retrieved fell to the ground. This method of marking a fall limits the dog's ability, relative to humans, to reliable mark and find fallen objects over distance. Marking in the retriever can be looked at as a variant of its ancestral hunting behaviour. A mental image, instead of a scent trail, leads the dog from the starting point to the location of the fall. (Dgos also use scent trails in searching for a mark. As for example, dogs will often be seen to "hunt behind the throwers" on scent trails laid down by earlier dogs/humans). On reaching the area of the fall, the dog resumes its instinctive hunting behaviour of looking for the prey.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:39 pm

One more everyone? or should we just type the whole book!!!

STRENGTHENING THE MENTAL IMAGE

It appears unlikely that retriever's can be trained or bred to use the human option of constant fixation on the location of a distant fall. Therefore, training for marking is directed at strengthing the dog's mental image of the location of where an object falls and developing its confidence to stay in the correct area and hunt until the object is found. This presents two separate problems that must be addressed. Training exercises are available which accentuate those two different aspects of training.

Charles Morgon (Charles Morgan on Retrievers. Abercrombie and Fitch, 1968) exphasized the value of single marks with large white training bumpers to develop visual skill in retrievers. He pointed out that a large white bumper creates a vivid visual image for the dog which in turn is transformed into a strong mental image that guides its progress to its objective. Another method of creating a strong mental image is to shoot live birds. Both the excitement of seeing a live bird in flight and falling and the loud noise of the gun intensify the dog's mental image and improve its marking accuracy. If the mental image is thought of as a black and white snapshot (the dog being colour blind) then a large white object obviously attracts attention in the picture.

The technique of intensifying the dog's mental image of a fall remains the basis of effective training for marking, and regular marking practice based on this principle should be a part of any training program.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:45 pm

REMAINING IN THE AREA OF THE FALL

Developing confidence in the dog to "believe its eyes" and stay in the area of the fall when it has not immediately located the mark is promoted by a different type of training. Two problems must be addressed. First, the dog must be trained to stop its forward progress when it reaches the area of the fall, and once stopped, it must stay in the area and mount an intelligent and effective hunt.

The ancestral instinct of the dog following a scent trail is to continue forward if the prey is not visualised. This may be why retrievers often tend to go past the area of a mark which they have not located ("over run") and whey they also have special difficulty with the concept of the indented placement of an object.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:52 pm

Last one for today.

SCENTING AND SALTING THE AREA OF THE FALL

Another approach which takes advantage of the dog's natural tendency to start hunting with its nose is to use scenting and/or salting of the area of the fall. In this method, scent (water in whcih birds are soaked), or multiple birds or bumpers are placed throughout the area of the fall so that when the dog reaches the area, its progress ill be arrested by seeing or scenting a bird or bumper. This method puts no pressure on the dog and thus does not disturb its memory or create undesirable behaviour. However, it should be realised that in trials, dogs are often required to go through areas of a previous fall or across scents etc and that too much of this type of training may adversely affect this type of performance.

IMPORTANT OF SHORT MARKS

Perhaps the most important and simple way to discourage overrunning marks is to regulary give the dog practice on short retrieves. Once a dog becomes competent on long marks, there is a tendency to use long marks exclusively. After a dog has had months of training on only long retrieves, the trainer may wonder why the dog has so much trouble marking a "simple" short fall. As discussed earlier, dogs tend to become "programmed" to go the distances on which they are trained. The develop a definite mind set that retrievable objects cannot possibly be located outside of their programmed distances (short or long) even though their eyes have just told them otherwise. A training program that includes plenty of both long and short marks given in different order helps prevent the development of this problem.

OVER AND OUT FOR TODAY. Julie and Kim.
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