E-collars

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Postby Brian McMillan » Fri 05 Mar 2004 11:21 pm

Robert;

I haven't read anything about the E-collar as far as how you trained back then as to how you train now. In fact, throughout this board the collar is rarely referred to. Is the use of the E-collar illegal there, or is it just not used? I think if you ask most american trainers, the e-collar has been the biggest, most signifcant, advancement in dog training, probably ever.

I'm not sure the 'American way' in field trialing would have developed to what it is today without the collar. Our way of trialing, IMHO, has long left any semblance to actual hunting conditions and are events that test the very limits of performance rather than hunting ability. Amazing to watch, and the dogs seem to be from another planet, but hardly realistic.

Brian
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Postby Kirsty Blair » Sat 06 Mar 2004 7:05 am

Hi Brian,

The E-collar is illegal in at least two states of Australia; NSW and ACT. In other states collars are used by some trainers but there seems to be a big stigma attached to their use. I think this is due to a number of reasons;

1) We have alot of highly successful trialers who don't use collars at all (or if they do they don't tell anyone)

2) The only experience some people have had with collars is the original models which were "one level suits all" fry your dog to a crisp models.

3) There is a feeling that if you use an e-collar you're not a good enough trainer to have achieved the same result without one.

4) We don't have the strong networks of professional support necessary to teach appropriate use of the e-collar. Most people who do buy a collar would train by themselves and work off videos which run a very poor second to watching and learning from an experienced trainer.


My own personal belief (out on a limb here!) is that the e-collar, like all training methods, is an extremely valuable tool in educated hands. Much damage has been done to dogs over many years by sticks, whips and the bare hands of angry, frustrated trainers. Even worse than the punishment is the fact that it is often so mis-timed that it has no connection in the dog's mind to what it did wrong :? . The e-collar allows correction at the precise time the dog misses a command regardless of the distance from the handler so, in many respects, is a more humane training tool than others.

Regardless of people's decisions on whether to use a collar or not I feel that its a pity that the stigma has had an effect on trialling. If a trialler has a dog which is extremely obedient to the whistle and lines and casts well there are inevitably murmers of "he uses a collar". It seems to be regarded as a form of cheating :shock: . I find this extremely frustrating :? - a bad trainer will be a bad trainer regardless of what you put in his hand, be it stick, whip or e-collar. Why is it better that a trialler should have achieved the same level of obedience by hitting it with a stick, shaking the dog by the scruff of its neck, or shooting it with pellets? An e-collar isn't some magic tool that, when placed around the dog's neck, tells it the answers to all life's big questions...."line straight through the cover","don't cheat the water", "sit to the whistle". That's training.

Kirsty
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Sat 06 Mar 2004 12:19 pm

Brian,

I think Kirsty hit the nail on the head. My undertsanding is that collars are legal in NSW but only with veterinary approval. i.e A vet must be prepared to sign off that a collar is the only way of fixing a problem such as excessive barking or chasing stock.

Unfortunatley the animal liberation groups in Australia have had a large impact on society by misrepesenting the truth on how a collar works. The RSPCA was taken to court by Innoteck and lost with a defamation case found against them to the value of $100,000 is my understanding.

While collars are advertised all over the country I suspect they are being used much more than anyone admits. Certainly the farming community and sheep dog trialers seem to readily accept their use. I think someone would have to have their head in the sand to not think that a number of both experienced and inexperianced handlers around the counrty have at least tried to use a collar. As Kirsty said the lack of a pro trainer to seek advice from is probably one of the reason that many triallers are wary of using a collar.

Time will only tell if we follow the US lead on this issue. I undertsand when they were first introduced in the USA many people were anti e-collars where as today they appear to be a dime a dozen.

Gareth

PS: I understand one club in Qld now offers club training days that allow the use of collars while other days are non collar days in an effort to appease both sides of the argument.
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Training Past and Present

Postby Alan Donovan » Sat 06 Mar 2004 4:39 pm

On the subject of e-collars:

I enquired a couple of years ago whether there would be any problem in having training seminars in Queensland on the appropriate use of e-collars - as I believe it is not the tool that is used, it is the method employed which is important. I was advised at that time that the ANKC (the national body under which our sport is regulated) had passed a resolution that no electrical devices were to be used for training dogs.

Unless that situation has changed, it is certainly arguable that anyone who deliberately ignores that resolution, and gains advantage as a result, is in fact cheating.

Maybe that is why there is a stigma attached to the use of e-collars, and why handlers tend not to broadcast the fact that they are benefitting from their use.

Anyone out there able to confirm the attitude of the ANKC?

Cheers - Alan
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Sun 07 Mar 2004 6:21 pm

Alan,

I recall hearing of a similar ANKC directive but have never been able to find it in writing. I would also imagine the ANKC could only direct people not to use collars at ANKC sanctioned events. You would think they have no powers over what people do in their own time and in their own back yard so to speak. I have certainly seen handlers use electric bark collars during the conduct of a trial.

I certainly woudn't condone the use of e collars on a trial site.

Gareth

PS: Like most of these complex issues there is plenty of rumour, inuendo, but not much put in writing it seems to me.
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Postby Kirsty Blair » Sun 07 Mar 2004 7:56 pm

Hi Alan,

The ANKC has a rule stating that electric collars are not to be used in training for obedience trials but I can't find one relating to retrieving trials.

Kirsty
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Split

Postby Jason Ferris » Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:56 am

This has developed into a topic of its own so I have split it out from the 'Training Past and Present' topic.

Cheers, Jason.
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:19 pm

My memory is a bit hazy but am sure we had a statement in the VCA Gazette some time ago that the ANKC did not sanction the use of e collars or pronged collars by its members. There is currently before our parliament amendment to the Prevention of cruelty to animals act prohibiting e collars but it is recognised to be highly controversial. The ban is supported by the VCA who believes they should be used only under the supervision of appropriately trained vets (I have a copy of the Draft.)
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Postby Brian McMillan » Mon 08 Mar 2004 1:26 pm

Hi all;

I just got back from a weekend of Hunt Testing, it's not exactly trialing, but our tests are probably closer to what your trials are than American trials. Where as your trials dogs/handlers compete against each other, in our tests dogs perform to a standard, and they either pass or fail. A pass earns a dog points towards a title. This is probably the biggest difference between the two, at least on paper.

My dog, Bosco, earned two passes this weekend, hit the 100 point mark and now has the title of Hunting Retirever Champion.

I hope to respond to the e-collar post tomorrow as I am worn out and ready to hit the hay.

So, till then;
Good Night and God Bless
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Mon 08 Mar 2004 5:21 pm

Congratulations Brian and Boscoe - sure you slept well if you had come down off the 'high' you must have been on :D
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Congratulations

Postby Robert Tawton » Mon 08 Mar 2004 5:42 pm

Hi Brian and Boscoe,

Bravo Zulu that is Navy speak for WELL DONE!!!!!

BFN, RWT
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Postby Brian McMillan » Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:38 pm

Hi all;

I've been thinking a lot of this E-collar issure. I started out training with the idea that I would not use a collar, but I got impatient with his progress when I saw and compared him to other dogs that were trained with the collar. I guress that's very American. :-) I also felt that I had hit a wall in my training and could not og through it. So I succumbed the way of the collar and when Bosco was 18 months old we began using one in our training.

I am neither pro collar, or anti collar. I think it is a personal choice. There are a few people in America who train without one and I greatly admire them for it because I know the work, the patience, and perserverence that goes into their training. Some of the most interesting, passionate and colorful conversations on the subject of the e-collar in BB's have been between UK trainers, I think the use is illegal there, and US trainers. From what Garweth, Kirsty and others have written, I think the people on this board have a healthy, balanced attitude about using e-collars to train.

What interests me is that several times the 'American Way' of trialing has been mentioned as a way that people hope Aus. trials won't go. I'm not sure that my definition of what constitues the American way of trialing is what Australians think of when they hear the term. When I think of the American trialing, I think of a contest that does no longer resembles true to life hunting situations, but rather a contest that pushes dogs to their very limits of performance to determine a winner.

I think there are reasons for this and maybe ones that Australians need to consider if they wish to keep a more pure form of trialing. Keep in mind that I have been in the game for only a couple of years and hardly speak from a position of authority. This is only my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

I don't think there was a set plan for the way our trials have evolved, but I think they have become what they are because of several influences over the last twenty years or so, The e-collar being but one of them. These infuences also include, selective breeding, the popularity of the sport bringing in large numbers of people particpating, the professional trainer, and, of course, the e-collars. As the dog work in trials got better and better, it became very hard to determine a clear cut winner; so the natural outcome was to make the tests more dificult so that a clear cut winner would emerge, actual hunting situations and hunting abilties of the dog taking a back seat.

From what I've read on this board, there is a desire for sport's popularity to grow. But I believe from what I've seen in American trials that there is a price to pay for the growth of the sport. The challange I see for your trials is to promote growth while at the same time perserving the purity of the sport. Is this what you mean when you say you don't want your trials to go the Amerian way? Are there any in the Australian community that do want to see the trials go the American way?

The growth in our sport has also enabled it to support four, that I know of, difrent organizations that conduct retrieveing contests, all in varying degrees trying to maintain tests that reflect actual hunting conditions. So, while the American trials have gone the way they have, we are not without choices. It will be interesting to see what happens in Australia as our sport grows.

Brian
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Postby Julie Cramond » Tue 09 Mar 2004 3:48 pm

Brian,

Congratulations on your achievement with your dog.

BTW, my sister spent last Christmas in Tampa, Florida, with her husband. They loved it.

She is based in the UK with her husband who is a British Airways pilot.

She flew home after Christmas to England, and then they returned to the States and spent New Years in Chicago.

Wasted trip I think, except for sightseeing, in my eyes. She does not EVEN run labradors!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Kerry Webster » Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:58 pm

Well done Brian and Boscoe. What a great feeling, hey ????

Just one point Brian, over here we do not have open hunting Nationally. There are areas of pig/boar hunting, some duck and quail in some states, and, I think I have seen buffalo and deer trophies also, but don't know where that may be. Some of the Aussie states have a total ban on hunting.

I think this has made some difference to hunting related sports such as retrieving. You will notice that Victoria has very good numbers in retrieving, and a good number of those are shooters, in season. From what I have seen on websites and in magazines, there are a good deal of dog owners in America that hunt with their retrievers, and, do hunt trials or field trials. You also have professional trainers, whose sole job in life is to train their own, and clients, dogs, and then often than not compete with them. We do not have that over here. It is purely an amateur sport, and I would hate to see the day that it became a professional trainers domain.

I do hope that our trials do not become more serious than they already are. The joy of watching a dog carry out what its instinct and breeding have intended it to do, and seeing the rapport between handler and his/her dog, is something I will never tire of, providing there is still an element of fun in it, and that "sheep stations" are not seen as the goal in retrieving.

Kerry
My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am.
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Wed 10 Mar 2004 12:02 pm

Congratulations Brian! Well done! :wink:

Be sure to keep us posted.

Pats for Bosco. :lol:

Teresap
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