E-collars

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Postby Brian McMillan » Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:42 pm

Thank you all for the congratulations sent our way! We spent a day (Monday) enjoying our success, but now it's back to work. We have some issues to deal with, namely line manners and bird handling skills.

Due to my new found knowledge of Austaliian geography, I have discovered that Australia's population is only about 20 million, or so. This slighty changes my postion that I stated earlier. I don't think Australia field trials will support more than one national organizaton that sanctions events just due to the lack of numbers. Nor do I think there are enough dogs for a trainer to make a living training dogs for trials. So it does not appear that professionas will come to dominate the sport there, as they have in America. Am I correct in assuming the challenge for trialing in Australia is to keep the sport unified? If so, than the use of the collar could be something that could challenge unification, and possibley participaton in the sport. If you buy into the belief that collar trained dogs perfrom better, on the whole, than non-collar trained dogs, then that would make for a competitive imbalance. What complicates the issue further is that apparently some states allow collar training, while others do not. If collar trained dogs come to dominate the sport in Australia, then trainers in non-collar states would have to defy the law, develope a separte non-collar organization, compete with not much hoping of winning, or find another hobby.

It will be interesting to see how this developes over the years. I've heard that sometime this summer there will be a competition between the best field trial dogs from the US, Canada, and the UK. This will be interesting because I don't think they allow collars in the UK.

Brian
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Postby Peter Betteridge » Thu 11 Mar 2004 6:38 pm

Brian
I can alleviate some of your worries.We are a reasonably unified bunch of people and I dont see any great divisions that will pull us apart. the lively and sometimes heated debates that take place on the bulletin board are only people expressing there opinion and having their say, nothing more.it would be a boring old bulletin board if everyone agreed with each other.there is absolutely no malice whatsoever and we are basically a friendly bunch with a dry sense of humour.The use of the e-collar is not really a hot topic in australia,nor is it particularily devisive.The nature of many of our trials recquires the dog to work out of sight of the handler on a significant number of runs.No e-collar can teach dogs to find birds. Our distances are much shorter than yours and our angles are not as tight.I think most Australian's like our trials pretty much the way they are.We squabble more over eligibility issues than the fundamentals off how our trials work.Whilst we admire the great skill of US field trial dogs my gut feeling is thet most Australians would like our sport to remain amateur in nature.It is still possible in Australia to take your pet dog out to a trial and be highly competitive without having to compete against a pro with a truckload of dogs and an amazing training facility.As you have probably guessed this site is the only one that unifies the whole country.Each state has a rep and contributers come from all round the country.Dont forget that Australia has a comparable land mass to continental USA which means people from Perth rarely see people from Brisbane.Triallers in Australia have a certain comraderie and i beleive the level of sportsmanship is very high.Brian you sound like you would make an ideal Australian.Why dont you come out and visit.We promise to make you very welcome.Bring your dog Bosco, quarantine recquirements are listed on the articles and archives page thanks to Bob Tawton.
Congads on your efforts with bosco and thanks for your interest and your contributions to our little on line community.I for one really enjoy your posts.
regards peter betteridge
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Postby Brian McMillan » Thu 11 Mar 2004 10:06 pm

Peter;

Thank you for the kind words and the illuminatiing post. Funny thing about collars; there is no magic in their use. A good trainer is good trainer, with or without training with a collar; and a bad trainer is always going to be a bad trainer. You have surmised correctly; I like the amature aspect of our sport. fortunately, the organization I compete in is still heavily populated by amatures; and there is a comradery with trainers and handlers that doesn't exist in some of the other orgs. I can't imagine sending Bosco off to a trainer for a year, then getting him back to handle him in trials. Where would the satisfaction be in that?

It would be great to visit Australia and to experience your trials. I feel a certain kinsminship with the folks there; always have. And I definitly share the trait of a dry sense of humour. But taking a trip there is something I don't see happening anytime soon; but I'll keep it in the back of my mind in case the oportunity presents it's self. I can't imagine Bosco working out of sight from me. It's usually a bad thing when that happens in a US trial.

I hope people don't mind my hanging around and participating in the board. Aussies are generally well recieved on American Boards.

Brian
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Postby Jason Ferris » Fri 12 Mar 2004 9:21 am

Brian wrote:I hope people don't mind my hanging around and participating in the board. Aussies are generally well recieved on American Boards.


Hi Brian

We welcome constructive and thoughtful input from anyone regardless of their location. Sometimes asking questions from a different perspective can encourage people to challenge their assumptions. Like Peter I have enjoyed your contributions to the site to date.

Cheers, Jason.
Last edited by Jason Ferris on Tue 23 Mar 2004 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Electric collars

Postby Alan Donovan » Tue 23 Mar 2004 2:54 pm

Hi Gareth

It has taken a couple of weeks for the documentation on the ANKC regulation on Electronic Collars to arrive, but this is it:


ANKC Regulations - Part 7 - Trials

There is a section dealing with updates to the regulations, due to the passing of resolutions at ANKC meetings

"Section 1 - General

..........

1.4 Electronic Collars

Electronic collars shall be banned from training ( 10/98 )

............."

I can fax the section to anyone interested. So (unless there is a loophole) there are not likely to be any training seminars on the use of electric collars. :roll:

Cheers - Alan
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Postby Kirsty Blair » Tue 23 Mar 2004 5:22 pm

Hi Alan,

I thought this section dealt with obedience trials. Does it make no determination of that nature?

Kirsty
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E-collars

Postby Alan Donovan » Wed 24 Mar 2004 7:51 am

Hi Kirsty

Part 7 is titled "Trials" - it is not limited to Obedience

Section 1.1 is about "National Trials", Section 1.2 about Gundog Obedience, Section 1.3 is a resolution about Obedience Trials (should be conducted in English!), 1.4 is on E-collars, Section 1.5 is about the Allocation of Utility Field Trial Championships.

The resolution on E-collars was apparently passed in October 1998.

Cheers - Alan
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Wed 24 Mar 2004 12:04 pm

Alan,

I know it is unlike the dog world to have something written poorly :wink: But does this mean a collar can be used in a "trial" just not in training :?

On a more serious note I would imagine this refers to club sanctioned training. In the ACT several of the obediance clubs have "training" nights and I suspect the regulation is aimed at those sort of events. I can not imagine that the ANKC can regulate what people do in their own time and on their own property provided it is within the enforceable laws of the land. This regulation seems both unworkable and unrealistic in its current form. I don't know if it is possible to write to the ANKC and seek formal clarification of the regulation or even if it would be worth doing.

Gareth
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 24 Mar 2004 3:01 pm

Gareth - think the intention is clear but as with all sorts of regulations difficult to enforce. I wonder how many people would be game to train a dog with an e collar where the general public can see it being used and who on this forum is prepared to admit publically to using one? This was discussed on radio last week and someone with a pet GSP rang in to say how it was the only way she could get the dog to come back. However, the general view was that as it is illegal to purchase one in Victoria the sooner the posession of one was outlawed the better. Prue
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Postby Kerry Webster » Wed 24 Mar 2004 8:47 pm

Is it any wonder then why Australia is labelled as "slow".

Correct use of any tool is the key, obviously. I would consider anyone abusing their dog to be subject to the Cruelty to Animal legislation in force in every state. Establising just what constitutes cruelty or abuse, is the question. Is beating a dog with a whip, 4 x 2, or similar an acceptable way ? I think not.

I can see the benefits of E collars, in the correct and knowledgeable hands, but just like any other tool, it can be mis-used and abused.

With all the beaurocracy we have in this country I think we are destined to always remain "Behind the 8 Ball", universally.

Kerry
My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am.
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Postby Gail Phoenix » Wed 24 Mar 2004 10:10 pm

A person I know through obedience clubs here in SA had her membership with SACA terminated for 3 months for using an E collar. The collar was not used at club events but was used on public property

The people using them here try to keep it very quiet for obvious reasons
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Postby Alan Donovan » Thu 25 Mar 2004 8:23 am

Hi Kirsty and Gareth

I passed your comments on to my dog (Old Numnuts) and here is his opinion:

All handlers should be required to wear collars during trials - so the judge can provide the appropriate level of stimulation when the handler makes a mistake. This will solve the present anomalous situation where a dog is penalised for the handler's error. Numnuts reckons this will improve the performance of handlers overnight.

He also confirms that (as Kirsty opined) Australians seem be a bit slow in matters philosophical (he is a "German" pointer, and keeps rabbitting on about the works of Engels, Freud, Jung, Nietzche, and a bunch of others that obviously his mother told him about when I was not listening). But when it comes to making up Rules about using E-collars on dogs, he thinks Australians show a Deep Understanding of Dog Psychology, and Enormous Wisdom in how to Motivate Dogs to go and Fetch Things.

And how come he is the only dog to have the opportunity to give his opinion on a website about dogs? He is looking forward to Kirsty's visit over here for the National, especially now he knows she is not bringing 4X2's and a whip.

Cheers - Alan
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Postby Alan Donovan » Thu 25 Mar 2004 8:49 am

Woops - sorry Kerry (not Kirsty)

Doesn't it get up your nose when people get your name wrong!

Cheers - Anal
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Thu 25 Mar 2004 12:17 pm

Alan,

I like Numnuts concept. Does the handler get to choose where he or she gets to wear the collar? I assume these handler collars will also come with varying sizes to suit the appropriate positioning. As for Kerry and her whips. Well some just like it the old fashined way :wink: for training.

Enjoy your next handling experiance.

Gareth
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Postby Kerry Webster » Thu 25 Mar 2004 2:02 pm

Hi Alan,

Don't think I can call you "Anal".........that's a bit below the belt !!!!! :lol:

So glad that Numnuts had an opinion on the subject. GSP's often do.

Gareth............Hey, no whips here................well, maybe occasionally on Ian.

I am pretty open minded about the whole subject of E collars, as long as they are used correctly and not as a means of punishment.

I have had lengthy email conversations with friends that field trial in the USA, who use E collars, and their methods of use were seen as just an extra tool, again, stressing the correct use. I personally have seen choke chains cause more stress and probably throat damage to dogs than anyone would think possible. Again, misuse of the tool.
Actually, I know of one dog than was killed by getting hung up by the lead attached to its choker.

It boggles the mind to think where on the handlers body the collar may be placed :shock:


Look, while the Australian Government is at it, why don't they ban a lot of other imports that may be deemed harmful, like, Scotch from Ireland and Scotland, German beer, Cigars, cigarettes, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, Porsche, Alfa Romeo and all the other imported cars. The list could be endless, and, all of the above are dangerous to our health. The way we use them determines how dangerous, just as it would for those wishing to use E Collars.

Oh Oh, look out, I'll be getting on my soapbox soon. Must show control, must show control.

Kerry
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