Returning to Old Falls

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Returning to Old Falls

Postby Teresa Parkinson » Tue 20 Apr 2004 9:54 am

Hi all!

I am hoping someone out there has experienced a similar issue to the one I am about to describe.

My 20mo male lab, Jock, has recently taken to doing something a bit out of character. The last run of the restricted stake on Easter Saturday was the first real sign I have seen of this behaviour. It was a walk up with a double mark. He handled the walk up beautifully, watched that bird go down, turned for the second bird, stepped on that one. I then sent him for the memory bird. He flew out, marked a bit short and then promptly went straight back to the old fall! He has since displayed a similar tendency in training on multiple retrieves so I am keen to nip it in the bud.

Jock has plenty of momentum and has always hunted his birds diligently. He does not normally give up. I should add though that his experience on mulitple retrieves is good but not extensive. He was taught the double rise concept in the yard environment quite some time ago and I don't believe this has had any direct bearing on what I am seeing now.

I feel this needs addressing from both a confidence and a discipline angle. To that end, I have some ideas but would welcome any additional help.

Thanks in advance.

Teresap
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Tue 20 Apr 2004 10:09 pm

Teresa,

Firstly, the very last thing I teach my dogs is double falls. They are very easy to teach but do have a tendency to teach dogs bad habits of going back to old falls.

As far as switching is concerned I think it very important that you have enough control over the dog before you put him in a switching situtation. This means having completed enough yard work that he rarely if at all slips whistles and can handle enough to put him back onto the right bird if he attempts to switch. It also great if you have an assisstant who when seeing a dog starting to switch can yell hey hey or whatever and get him to return to the correct fall area. I can recommend Siobhan for this job if you have a radio. (NO radio, She is no Good). I will only charge a small nominal for to borrow her. :wink:

You need to ask yourself is the dog switching because A. He is being lazy or a lack of effort in which case punsihment to fit the crime is warranted or B. He simply doesn't understand that switching in not allowed. You therefore need punishemnet for asking the dog to do something you have not trained for. or C. The test you have set is beyond the dogs current level refer to B for your punishment.

Most important is don't get any advice from Wayne. He doesn't believe in side delivery for Gods sake. :roll:


Gareth
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 21 Apr 2004 9:07 am

Hi Teresa - not sure whether we have discussed this or not, but once the dog understands the concept of a double mark, I NEVER repeat it and don't do it as singles first. If there have been problems, move to another area and set up a similar situation and make it easier. Agree with Gareth - have never taught a double rise and don't intend to - if that stuffs up the odd trial - too bad. This has certainly worked with Inca - much to Jack's disgust because it involves a lot more walking and setting up but he is coming around! Prue
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Wed 21 Apr 2004 10:57 am

Prue,

It is not that I NEVER teach a double rise I teach it last so the dog can learn other more important aspects of multiple retrieves first, without the added complication of "it is ok to return to and old fall now but not later".

Unlike you I do repeat multiple retrieves as part of the teaching process. To repeat a double mark for example and alternate the pick up order really helps the dog grasp the idea of selecting. That is, pick up in the order I choose not what the dog may prefer.

Gareth
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Postby paul young » Wed 21 Apr 2004 11:35 am

hi Teresa,

i have used a drill that can improve the perserverance of a dog's hunt. i've heard it called the corn cob drill or the dirt clod drill. i guess it got that name in the old days as they would actually throw those objects.
any way, the basis is that a double mark is thrown. the fall area for the "go" bird is heavily scented and a bird is thrown into that area. as the dog runs toward the bird, the thrower picks the bird up. this can be done easily by tying 40' of light rope to the bird and pulling it back to the thrower. a ditch,mound or heavy cover enroute facilitates recovering the bird without the dog knowing it. the dog is allowed to hunt as long as it stays in the aof. as soon as it makes it's move to switch it's hunt area to the other bird, the thrower pitches a bird back in, without the dog seeing it. the handler then has the option of gunner help (teaching), handling the dog back into the area (mild pressure) or punitive correction followed by handling back to the area. in all cases once the dog has re-entered the fall area, allow it to hunt the bird up. do not handle as though it were a blind.

hope this translates well and is helpful. :wink:
if at first you don't succeed, RELOAD!
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Wed 21 Apr 2004 1:25 pm

Gareth, Prue and Paul,

Thanks for responding. Your answers make a great deal of sense and have given me more room for thought. At the same time, they confirm that I am on the right track with the solutions I've decided to use. This deficiency in Jock's training was bound to surface at some stage and as I find is often the case, trailling is where it's most likely to happen!

I am currently teaching Jock a specific 'seek' command. Then, based largely on Wayne's advice (yes, Gareth, in spite of one major flaw in my husband's training ethic! :lol:) my plan is to re-introduce multiple retrieves, teach Jock what I'm after (the "clod drill" is definitely one I intend incorporating Paul), correct as necessary and ultimately enforce the concept of staying in one fall area at a time.

Gareth, your point about having good control is taken. Apart from totally blowing out of the fall area at the trial I mentioned :oops:, I have since handled Jock back to a nominated bird in training without any issues.

I don't believe Jock is displaying anything except a fervent desire to find a bird as quickly as possible. Prue, I think you can probably vouch for this :wink:. Unfortunately, in this case, his method isn't quite what I'm after. He generally tries very hard to please and I have no reason to doubt that if I can show him what will get him the bird (and, if necessary, what won't!), he will have this down pat in no time.

Teresap
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 21 Apr 2004 5:46 pm

Gareth - will certainly bow to your superior knowledge in these matters -just that has worked for me. However, on reflection probably most of the non-switching has been taught via the 3 and 5 leg patterns as I train a lot on my own and have used these varying the selection order. The intention of the exercise was not to stop her switching on marks but this has probably been a side benefit.
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Postby Wayne Parkinson » Wed 21 Apr 2004 7:04 pm

Prue the only reason not to repeat is when there is a complete stuff up.
Because running it again will just repeat the mess.
You can always simplify by shortening up to remove some of the hazards.

As Gareth said you can vary the bird to be retrieved first and if I remember back in the distant past I think Charlie Ball once told me he often repeated multiple retrieves but changed the place the dog was sent from thereby changing the angles. I think this is still a good idea but I would only use it with experienced dogs.

My suggestion to Teresa was to teach the dirt clod drill first as a seperate exercise to make sure the dog understood he needed to persist and when it was understood to introduce the seek command. This process would take out the option of the dog not knowing what is required of him.

Prue it's interesting to note that Charlie also said that persistance was one of the problems with a lot of GSPs in his view (I'm talking about the GSPs that were around when I started tirialing) and he said they would have benifited from this drill.

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Postby Prue Winkfield » Thu 22 Apr 2004 2:48 pm

Thanks Wayne - have lots of problems but persistence is not one of them!
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