ponds

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ponds

Postby Tony Rowland » Sun 18 Dec 2011 11:36 am

This many be of interest to some

http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/show ... p?t=882885

tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
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Re: ponds

Postby Peter Betteridge » Mon 19 Dec 2011 8:29 am

geez tony wouldnt we all love to have technical water like this to train on
seems like a lot of good tune up drills and decheating exercises can be done on ponds of that quality
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Re: ponds

Postby Joe Law » Mon 19 Dec 2011 2:25 pm

H'mmmm, perhaps not all but certainly some more than others, Peter. I suspect those more interested in emulating conditions that can be found when hunting might prefer to see some genuine heavy cover, tall reeds, lilypads, etc. Also add in some natural features that would require negotiating to help develop those game-finding skills such as courage, sagacity, nose and perseverence. However, that might not suit those who proclaim to have affiliations with other countries and seem to have a different idea about what the word "decheating" might mean.
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Re: ponds

Postby Peter Betteridge » Mon 19 Dec 2011 4:26 pm

strange post joe I thought we were discussing what training possibilities existed on the ponds presented in the pictures.If u would like to add any additional features to the pictures presented that is your prerogative but i would have enjoyed the opportunities the pics present to teach my dogs to run straight in the presence of water and diversions. I am not sure how this aligns me with any other country but i would like my dogs to run better blinds maybe your dogs dont need the work but mine do
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Re: ponds

Postby Joe Law » Tue 20 Dec 2011 5:48 am

Peter, I am sure you still have the opportunity to discuss how you teach your dogs to run straight in the presence of water and distractions along with the tools you use. Perhaps I should have learnt by now that it would be better for me to be proactive when it comes to my beliefs and concerns for the future direction of Australian trialling rather than reacting to some fancy pictures and extreme views being expressed on a foreign website. I probably allowed myself to be distracted by your initial gushing response. I should try and be more tolerant and understanding in future and choose a more appropriate place to express my views.
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Re: ponds

Postby Peter Betteridge » Tue 20 Dec 2011 10:19 am

good lord how did this thread come to this !!!!!!!!!!
a couple of pictures of some training ponds and now we are discussing how we teach our dogs to run straight and the future of Australian retrieving trials
just a little off topic Joe u are drawing a very long bow
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Re: ponds

Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 21 Dec 2011 7:31 pm

Whilst reluctant to get into a debate between two eminant NSW triallers - think a discussion on the future of Australian Retrieving Trials could be most interesting - for instance are we fostering glorified obedience trials with all the emphasis on control? It is now the 'down' season and we need some lively discussion to keep us going :P Following a discussion at lunch today: what percentage of a trial is judged on control and what natural hunting ability - the consensus was about 25% in favour of natural ability? :cry: (no judges were at the lunch :lol: )
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Re: ponds

Postby Tony Rowland » Thu 22 Dec 2011 7:41 pm

Sorry for causing such a strange response?

See what happens when you look to inject some talk back onto this forum (basically dead forum) Someone always seems to hi jack things, maybe it may be better to just not post anymore and leave it to those who's badge is promotion of new comes, but do not post anything but negitive snipes.

Peter i would love to have some ponds like this. I have just scouted for training sites across the council area i work for, finding at least ten to fiftheen sites (public and private) to train on with most of them lacking points, I have found that ponds like in the picture are more relevent to teaching concepts with my young dog and giving him confidence. I get enough cover etc when Im shooting (boxing day at the rice :lol: ).
prue - on blinds control is it, on marks natural ablity, but you are a team and to win some times you need to finish. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
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Re: ponds

Postby Prue Winkfield » Fri 23 Dec 2011 3:01 pm

Tony I know the theory it is the practice I wonder about :P
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Re: ponds

Postby Peter Betteridge » Fri 23 Dec 2011 3:16 pm

Tony we now have three topics going on in one thread I am all for passionate debate and please Prue feel free to join in I certainly don't consider myself eminent and I'm sure Joe doesn't either
Back to the original topic ,the poster who drew up all the various red lines on the training ponds did a pretty good job in my opinion I would love to test my dogs out on his drills . Im not sure how that constitutes an extreme view but there u have it.
Like u Tony I wont control on my blind work and that's what i endeavor to teach my dogs to do
marking is a combination of natural ability and training the most successful triallers get the balance about right
I think Joe's article written in 2003 on the direction we are heading in is insightful and i agree with most of his observations but that is a topic for another thread
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Re: ponds

Postby Tony Rowland » Fri 23 Dec 2011 8:27 pm

prue

I handle to what i said i dont believe dog should run all around a paddick only to trip over it and say
thats good dog work or what some calls natural ability. If you where in the swamp i wouldnt want my
dog hunting an area to death, when i could blow one whistle(team work) and have him back beside me safe from snakes
or stray shot. I think if you can try for 40% natural ability to win trials I believe this is a good balanced trial
in aa for any country .
peter the drills in red would only be what most handles in aa would be building to cooled or warm i would hope.

tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
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Re: ponds

Postby Gareth Tawton » Sat 24 Dec 2011 8:45 pm

Tony,

Thanks for trying to keep the site active. I for one appreciate it.

I would love to have access to ponds like these to train on. Sure there is a difference between what terrain we would like to use as a judge and that we would like to use to train dogs on. Purely from a training point of view I think they would be excellent. They remind me a bit of some the rice bays many of us shooters have shot on over the last few weeks. Natural conditions hmmmm just what are natural conditions? Now thats a whole new topic....

Prue,

If you look at the average AA and compare the number of sited birds (marks, walkups, two birds double falls etc) and blinds. I would think about 2/3 rds of the birds would be sighted and therefore the bulk of the work I would consider falls under the banner of "natural working ability" . Does our propensity to mix marks and blinds and a high demand for specific pick up order negate some of this??? Probably, but overall having seen trials in both Europe and and the USA I think we have a great balance between control and natural ability.

Now consider novice is only marks and resticted is mostly marks. In the big picture one could even argue maybe 80% of birds are about a dogs natural marking/working ability. We can all manipulate statistics to suit our argument. Trying to find some mid ground seems to be the hard thing.

Off to check on a litter of pups. Have a great Xmas and happy New Year.

Gareth
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Re: ponds

Postby Peter Betteridge » Wed 28 Dec 2011 7:48 pm

good very balanced post Gareth
u have raised some interesting questions Marking is more than just natural ability particularly in AA. We need judges that can put on marking tests that allow trained as well as natural abilities to be displayed This can be challenging because technical marking setups which require a dog to face a broad assortment of factors, require a high degree of training Non technical marking setups are a better indicator of ability but throwing marks into cover in a reasonably featureless paddock will often disadvantage the early dogs in a trial far to much to be fair Again a balance needs to be found.The use of remote send marks is one tool that judges rarely use which i feel could be utilized more
Also the use of indented marks rather than just flat and angled back trajectories would help evaluate marking thru caste recognition again allowing natural ability to shine Good judges need to vary the length of marks as well and learn to put on 2 birds that actually work and provide a challenging marking opportunity not just a nothing bird or set up in such a way that a dog with a less than ideal return is overly penalized
retrieving trials are about team work and part of natural ability is a dogs relationship with its handler hence walk up marks are useful and marks where the dog disappears for most of the run are not. Unfortunately we still have judges that put this on
Prue im not sure how your friends have come to their conclusion but i would be very interested to see there rationale
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Re: ponds

Postby Prue Winkfield » Thu 29 Dec 2011 3:13 pm

Peter - it was just a casual discussion and think the conclusion was drawn from watching AA where the people saw most dogs being handled on the majority of marks - ie control. My friends are more from a hunting/field trial background rather than retriever trials which probably affects their views and I have to say mine, even though I happily compete in AA with no thought of it resembling hunting :P Novice is like the real thing as is Restricted generally. Prue
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