Two Sided Heeling

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Two Sided Heeling

Postby Kirsty Blair » Thu 23 Oct 2003 11:40 pm

Hi all,

I've been watching a very heated debate continue on a US discussion list over two-sided heeling. Some trainers believe it to be just another useful tool available to handlers and some seem to be agressively against the idea.

Does anyone in this country use heeling on both sides as a trialling and/or training tactic? Any thoughts on the matter?

Kirsty
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Postby Julie Cramond » Fri 24 Oct 2003 10:08 am

Hi Kirsty,

When I looked at the option of double sided heeling I found it very awkward, especially as we are required to hold the gun at all times.

There are many A grade professionals in the US that still only have a one sided dog. The main reasons for this I was told were:

(a) If the owner of the trained dogs run the dogs in competition the handler is not comfortable with the exercise and can easily use the double sided heeling concept incorrectly.

(b) Many professional trainers do not think that it helps.

I hope the following makes sense:

Three various professional trainers thoughts on double sided heeling:

(1) I do not have too many thoughts on this either positive or negative, but I do know that I have no time for it. One things that I am suspicious of is that heeling on two sides is a shortcut for teaching your dog to go straight or to not head swing or some other training procedure.

(2) A big portion of this depends on who the hander is....you must have an extremely good handler to be able to be effectively running a dog from either left or right heel position. Most of the dogs that I get in training come already trained to run on one side. In that type of situation, its probably not productive to re teach a dog to heel on both sides.

(3) Dogs that have a propensity to move on the line do not need to know that they can run from either side. These kinds of dogs need to know that there is only one sport to sit when you line them up for marks. We have a rule in training. Whichever way the bird is thrown is the side on which the dog heels. BY FAR THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE OF BEING ABLE TO RUN A DOG ON BOTH SIDES IS THE ADVANTAGE YOU GET AT A FIELD TRIAL WHEN YOU BLOCK A BIRD, USUALLY THE FLYER, SO THAT THE DOG CAN CONCENTRATE ON THE OTHER BIRDS IN THE TEST.

I also looked at also:

(1) We require our dogs to front finish and the judges select order of bird pick up, so we pick the next mark not the dog.

(2) We train to go as sent.

(3) Our dogs are very good at the starting pegs (or else they will not see the marks). The last thing we want to do is block out a mark. Flyers (live birds are used as a matter of course in the US).

There are a few very successful dog trainers in Australia that use double sided heeling.

Me I will stick to one side, for no other reason, as we are required to move "firing" points and thus "sending" points I do not think that double sided heeling is vital and I get confused enough as it is.

Julie
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Postby M&J » Sat 25 Oct 2003 12:18 pm

Hi Krsty

I myself heel on one side but I did give two sided heeling some serious consideration when I first acquired my pup. I believe its benefit would be seen in lining in which the handler could help to counteract the dogs desire to switch when faced with tight lines. However, if one takes the time to train the dog on initial lining skills including such things as forward heeling, backwards heeling, moving sideways, etc (essentially teaching the dog to follow the direction of your leg no matter what direction you move) and then entrenching those skills through such drills as the 4, 8 and 16 bumper wagon wheels (which also serve to teach the dog to accept the line given, go as sent and teamwork), then having the dog heel on one side shouldn't disadvantage such a dog from one that can heel on both sides, provided that you continue to train the dog to maintain the intial line given and never let it get away with an offence (ie. don't deviate).
However, my opinion is not qualified with experience in that this is the first dog that I have trained and maybe in a few years time I may well have another that I might train to heel on both sides. Only time will tell. For now I am learning as I go and I continually have to go home after a training session and think of a way to improve the message that I am trying to convey to my dog.

Bye for now

Mark
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Postby Julie Cramond » Sat 25 Oct 2003 1:10 pm

I was pondering again this thread yesterday.

Why not train a dog to heel both sides (being able to send both sides) one side for marks and other side for blinds. At the very least it would be another cue to the dog what we require mark or blind order.
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Two sides

Postby Kirsty Blair » Sat 25 Oct 2003 7:41 pm

Hi Julie,

You read my mind! This is exactly the context I thought two-sided heeling would be nice in. As I currently give my line for blinds with my right hand (with the dog on the left) I was wondering if it might be practical to line the dog from the right side. This should act to cue the dog to a blind or mark (theoretically!). Is this "legal" as far as our Australian rules go? I can't find anything in the rule book to the contrary but wonder how our judges would view it.

I agree with you both (Julie and Mark) that two-sided heeling won't really be of alot of benefit if your dog is trained adequately on the left side.

I am finding it very interesting to observe the extremely agressive arguements ensuing on the US website! :shock: There are a number of trainers who believe that two-sided heeling will lead to the downfall of retrievers'natural working ability. An arguement which has, in the past, also been linked to use of a whistle, selection of marks, handling, force fetching, e-collars etc etc

Thanks for you insight.

Happy training!

Kirsty
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Postby Jason Ferris » Mon 27 Oct 2003 12:28 pm

Hi Kirsty

Gareth trained Monty on two sided heeling, but I can't recall seeing him use it in a trial. Of course he is on the road at the National at present (and I believe celebrating winning the Tas State on the weekend) so won't be around to give you his views for a week or so.

For my 2c worth - I believe making things as simple as possible for myself and the dog. For me this means left side heeling (even though I shoot left handed) and a verbal cue for marks and blinds.

Cheers, Jason.
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Two Sided Heeling

Postby Robert Tawton » Mon 17 Nov 2003 11:08 am

Hi Kirsty.
I have experimented with two sided heeling and have used it to advantage in trials and certainly my new pup, "Tank", is being taught to heel both sides. Most dogs are taught to heel on the left side because most people are right handed. In theory at least, the effects of muzzle blast will be lessened if the dog is on the left. It therefore follows that all left handed shooters should teach their dogs to heel on the right.
The Rules for the Conduct Of Retrieving Trials are silent on the question of which side the dog should heel and so they should be. I would therefore be most surprised if any Judge was to take exception to a two sided heeling dog. The key element would/could be the possibility of losing points if the dog required multiple commands to change sides or did so in a sloppy manner.

Recently an animal behaviourist wrote that you should be able to teach your dog a new concept in 35 repetitions, but it may take as many as 300-400 repetitions to alter an established pattern. "Mac" was nearly 9 years old when I started him on two sided heeling and it took me nearly a year before he was "fully" reliable and comfortable with the concept. "King" being younger picked up on the idea much quicker and with "Tank" it has been a breeze because there was no reprogramming component in the equation!

The advantage I see (in the Australian scene) is not in having an additonal cue for the dog (like heeling on the left for marks and on the right for blinds) but it gives you the option to position your dog at the Firing Point to take advantage of a "cleaner" line to the bird (mark or blind) in the case of a difficult or angle entry into water, past a tree or over some obstacle. Alternatively heeling on the right may be used to increase the angular separation between two items of game that are nearly in line with each other.

Certain professional trainers overseas favour single sided dogs over two sided dogs. When pressed on this point the reponse I got was. " some of my clients have enough difficulty in remembering how to accurately align their dogs up on specific birds so why complicate the process by giving them further options". I suspect that he was a devotee of the KISS principle!

Personally I think it is a very useful tool to have in reserve for when the occasion demands, remembering that many trials are won and/or lost on a single point.

Regards, RWT
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Postby Kirsty Blair » Mon 17 Nov 2003 12:03 pm

Thanks so much, Bob! :D

Kirsty
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Two Sided Heeling

Postby Pam Lyons » Wed 25 Feb 2004 12:32 pm

Kirsty

As I do Agility which requires left and right handling, I have found it quite easy to line my dogs up on my right hand side. Still heel to the firing point on the left then send them round to the right if the occasion needs it. Seems a simple solution to me.
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Two-sided Heeling.

Postby Robert Tawton » Wed 25 Feb 2004 4:12 pm

Pam,

An excellent suggestion and a good starting point, but for Retrieving Trials it has a number of shortcomings. Have you considered the additonal command involved coupled with the fact that there are Judges who count the number of commands given while a competitor is walking to and from the Firing Point? Your solution is unlikely to work in certain Walk-up Retrieves or in some All Age events when the Judge does not give the handler any time to settle a dog at the Firing Point. As I said in a previous post, two-sided heeling is a useful tool for special occasions and then only when the dog is 100% reliable.

Kindest regards, RWT
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 25 Feb 2004 4:31 pm

Hi Pam and welcome to the forum. I have toyed with the idea of two sided heeling and even started to teach it to one of my dogs. However, handling the dog, the gun, the whistle and trying to put everything together in a timely manner whilst keping MY focus, :roll: let alone the dog's is hard enough at trials as it is so decided the last thing I needed was something else to think about! Prue
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Postby Kerry Webster » Wed 25 Feb 2004 5:36 pm

Hi all,

Now here is an interesting situation. A friend, who actually visits this site, is a left handed handler. With her fourth retriever having just arrived on the doorstep, I suggested that she train this pup to heel on the right side for retrieving, and, on the left side for obedience trials, which she intends competing in as well.

The reason I suggested this, is (1) the proximity of the gun and shot to the dog (directly overhead if heeled on the left).
(2) The increased risk of hitting the dog with the barrel of the gun
(3) The necessity to change the gun to the right side of the body if a line was being given to the dog.

The obedience trial would require the dog walking to heel on the left side throughout the tests.

The only problem my friend had with this was, a separate command for each side. She uses heel for the left side, so I suggested using "right" for the right side, seeing this word is not used by this handler in the field.

I haven't checked to see if the two sided heeling is actually going to be a part of the training, but it makes an interesting example for using it, which most of us do not have to contend with.

Kerry
My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am.
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Postby Jason Ferris » Thu 26 Feb 2004 8:59 am

Hi Kerry

As a left handed person myself, I have put quite a bit of thought into this. I actually think that shooting over the dog has some advantages in terms of helping the dog mark off the gun, but then I am quite tall so dont have to worry about hitting the dog with the barrels or excessive muzzle noise (when firing live shells).

Cheers, Jason.
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Postby Kerry Webster » Thu 26 Feb 2004 1:18 pm

Hi Jason,

Yes, I know how tall you are, and I don't know if you remember how tall I am, but my friend is about the same as me, so quite close to the ground.

Are there any other left handed handlers who can provide input on this ???

Kerry
My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am.
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Postby Jason Ferris » Thu 26 Feb 2004 1:28 pm

Hi Kerry

I remember how tall you are, but chose not to comment as that tends to get us tall people in trouble. :wink:

Cheers, Jason.
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