NSW UFT trials

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NSW UFT trials

Postby John Hoy » Sun 03 Jun 2012 8:57 am

Here I am sitting home on a wet Sunday morning thinking about doing some training and dreaming about the NSW UFT that was cancelled this weekend due to last minute entry cancellations and insufficient numbers.
Does anyone have any ideas on how we can develop increased interest in this purist form of quail hunting???? Would any body like some training weekends? Or would like swap some more information on training, we could do it through this forum or privately. It is not secret squirrells stuff but requires a fair degree of commitment to get your dog upto speed.
Next year may be better if we are granted a duck and quail season ( and we bloody well deserve one). We are not criminals just honest citizens trying pursue our sport and abide by the rules of the land.
Remember " you can't shoot quail in the cemetry."
John Hoy
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby David Mills » Sun 17 Jun 2012 10:03 pm

You could always go to Vic and compete in real trials instead of some half baked form of competition designed to hide major faults in the dogs.
Just an idea some might want to consider. I have a great time down there.
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby brettdavidson » Mon 18 Jun 2012 12:18 pm

What major faults are being hiden at these trials???? Please explain
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby Wayne Outtrim » Mon 18 Jun 2012 2:58 pm

Hi Brett, i can only assume Dave would mean the ability for a dog to track wounded game and to show the dog will retrieve such game tenderly. I can also only assume Dave wrote this before he really thought about it much surely he wouldn't, couldn't mean these trials are only put on to hide these MAJOR FAULTS. I totaly agree that competing in Vic is at the moment the ultimate and i also agree titles should be only achieved at trials run under these conditions, it is also almost imposible for competitors living the other side of Grafton NSW to finish work say on Friday afternoon travel 20 HOURS to VIC to compete finish the trial say 3pm Sunday and travel 20 HOURS home to get to work at 7am Monday morning. Brett i dont know if you are aware i was one of the people that tried to get the trials up and running again in NSW with the hope we may get a season back again well that may happen and let me assure you EVERY competitor will run in these trials i can assure you i'm not aware of anyone trying to hide MAJOR FAULTS in our dogs. I have also aproached some judges in NSW to help us promote the sport here, most dogs and handlers need help, someone to give us the advice we need to get our dogs up to the standard to compete in VIC then some may travel over the border, sadly i had NO takers cant remember any club in NSW EVER trying to promote this sport correctly.
Regards Wayne Outtrim
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby David Mills » Mon 18 Jun 2012 7:32 pm

I must confess, "designed" was a poor choice of word. Non-shooting trials only started when some states lost their game bird season and a few who probably thought they were doing the right thing came up with this concept. I don't believe they set out to HIDE the major faults in any of the dogs competing. However, the fact is that non-shooting trials are not a thorough test of the capabilities of utility gundogs and the potential for such trials to hide faults is extreme.
As for people not being able to attend trials so far away is an excuse used by those who are not passionate enough about this wonderful sport. Fair enough to go more than once or twice a year would put a strain on anyone's family or working life but if you really are a dedicated trialler you have to make the time.
Just like deer hunters and fishermen travel all over this country in pursuit of their sport. The retrieving trial fraternity are a perfect example, how many are going right across to W.A. later this year?
For many years i tried to organise a group from NSW to go to Vic for the June long weekend trials and i reckon i heard every excuse ever spoken.
For many more years i've tried to organise promotional/training days all to no avail. I remember only last year making myself available for a newcomer to the sport to get some more experience and ideas.
Anyway that's enough dribble from me, good to see i've woken some people up for a healthy debate.

Dave
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby brettdavidson » Mon 18 Jun 2012 9:04 pm

Hi Dave and Wayne.

I do agree with you both, but attitudes like this do not help the people living in states that have game laws that beyond their control. I believe that these states are doing the best they can in the current climate. People don't have to drive for 20hours to get to a trial in victoria. They can do what we west australians have been doing for years - getting on planes and flying accross. The retrieving people are doing it all the time. A 'die-hard' trialler will want to trial their dogs in other states. I know,coming from a n/s state, that victoria has the ultimate trials and that sort of trial is what I aspire to enter but I cant take 3-4 dogs on a plane, hire a car, drive to god knows where, have the trial then do the reverse to get home. When I do plan to travel to Vic I plan to take the best 1-2 of my 3-4 dogs.

But there is still the issue of having credible trials in N/S states. The us versus them is not helping. I will grow wings and fly before WA gets a shooting season back. I'm not sure about QLD but NSW sounds like they could be lucky. But what about the future? What would happen if Victoria loses their shooting season? How are new people coming into our sport? Most are women. 90% of new people don't have a gun licence and the way the police are it is very hard to get one. I think people need to start thinking outside the fishbowl as there is a big lake out there. We need to make sure our sport and interests have a future.

Healthy debate is good :)
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby David Mills » Mon 18 Jun 2012 11:29 pm

Hi Brett,
I really do sympathise for you westies and canetoads and even those in northern NSW, however i have no sympathy for those who reside in Sydney or further south as they in my opinion have no valid excuse not to make an effort to trial in Vic.
I agree there is a them and us attitude within our ranks and i am certainly guilty of this. Hopefully the upcoming rule review will ease a lot of the tension that exists. The NSW submission has a lot of merit and any fair minded person with a conscience should acknowledge that.
As far as who we attract into the sport, we need to be very careful. Remember they will have a vote one day.
We must understand that there are plenty of shooters out there and plenty of dog people, but to find a shooter who can train a dog is rare. We triallers are a unique breed ourselves.
To open the doors to all and sundry would spell disaster. Little old ladies (or similar) who don't know which end of the gun is the dangerous end are not who we need. We're already too far down that road with people who don't want to shoot (but that's another debate).
I've said for years that if this sport dies a natural death i can handle that but if it's killed with stupidity that's inexcusable.
Happy huntin'
Dave
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby John Hoy » Tue 19 Jun 2012 7:13 am

Hi Dave,
Even though I have never met you I admire you for what you and your dogs have achieved and repect your opinions.
I am a deer hunter,a fisherman and a quail shooter. I know that you have to travel the miles to realise your dreams. I am already planning next years holidays around the UFT's and quail hunting seasons.
I posted the original post with the intention of creating healthy debate on the subject of UFT's, it has taken a while but has livened up in the last few days.
Wayne is also passionate about working gundogs and has put alot of time and effort into trying to reestablish UFT's In NSW.
Non shooting trials are not the bees knees but are a stepping stone towards reigniting the interest in quail hunting in NSW. Dogs would be tested for hunting prowess, game finding ability, honouring, steady to shot, marking the fall of game, retrieving, retrieving game from water and SOFTNESS of mouth. Any dog who can come through a test like that must be worthy of recognition.
There are alot RT Champions who have never retrieved a duck that has been shot in the field.
A dog from QLD who has been through the non shooting UFT game came second in the national championships last year. (Admitedly he has a wealth of breeding and a very astute handler.)
We are only a minute community and need to work together to achieve an acceptable way of trialing our dogs and enjoying the commarderie that occurs at these trials. It is too precious to let die.
John
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby Wendy Michalk » Tue 19 Jun 2012 7:15 pm

Hi all,
well David aren't you the lucky one seasons to shoot Quail & ducks, obviuosly plenty of money to travel great distances with dogs in tow, no problem with work or family commitments. CHALLENGE come to QLD ,observe a Trial then tell all & sundry what we're trying to achieve is so awful .Don't knock what you haven't seen first hand. I happen to be one of those, what was it, little old ladies coming into the sport. How do you think we train our dogs in QLD to run in field trials, spend weekend after weekend hiding flaws no doubt. I can tell you no flaw is overlooked by the men I hunt with it is delt with very quickly & I believe these guys are well respected by all in this game , as well as retrieving. They are proud of the standard their dogs achieve and allow nothing less from those who hunt with them. Yes I do shoot ,yes I do have a licence & do own a shot gun & appreciate a good working GSP.
A little compassion for those who are less fortunate than you southern people with your lovely flat country, cold weather & hunting seasons .Please.
cheers
Wendy
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby David Mills » Tue 19 Jun 2012 8:55 pm

Well i don't rate myself as a fisherman but i think i just got a bite!
I'm merely voicing my opinion, we all have a right to do that. I certainly wouldn't be so rude as to launch a personal attack on anyone, particularly when i didn't know them or anything about them.
For the record we don't have a game bird season in NSW. I'm certainly not wealthy,not even close. I do have both work and family commitments. I've been to QLD twice, once to Kilcoy to trial on brown quail and once to Oakey for stubble quail. If you check the engraving on the "WINGS" memorial trophy you will find this to be correct. As for flat country, you have obviously never ventured down south for a field trial. Maybe some people should gain a little more experience before they shoot their mouth off.
Dave
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby Wendy Michalk » Tue 19 Jun 2012 11:11 pm

seems you're right David I did bite well ,actually yes I have met you(seems you made more of an impression than I ) I actually saw you run your dog some years back near Towomba, When you won that cup at Oakey . ,no personal attack intended, just being somewhat defensive about the subject of trialling in non shooting states . I know we would all sooner be able to have hunting seasons & the men in QLD spend an awful lot of time lobbing politicians to get our seasons back, but it is what it is, surely you can't blame us for trying to hold onto this sport for the benefit of the dogs we breed. Change of government could change it all & if we don't pursue some form of trialling our dogs will fall by the wayside & considering the time & effort put into breeding dogs to the finest quality hunting lines, it would be a pity to see that happen.
cheers Wendy
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby David Mills » Wed 20 Jun 2012 12:05 am

Hi John,
Thanks for your kind words in your opening line.
I would like to respond to a couple of things in your last post.
There are certainly many R.T. Champs out there that never get shot over in the field but i would be happy to take any one of them to duck opening. I'm very confident that they would retrieve all birds shot with the same enthusiasm they display at retrieving trials. I'm not sure i understand the point you were making.
As for the QLD dog you referred to i think you meant the Vic state c'ship. If so, i had the pleasure of judging this bitch and her astute handler and was obviously impressed enough to award 2nd place in a championship stake (no mean feat). However to suggest these were the first birds shot over this bitch would be naive.
There are a number of differences between shooting and non-shooting trials and quite frankly not much can go wrong until you start dropping birds in front of dogs. This is when the action can heat up. It doesn't take much of a dog to stand there and watch birds fly off into the sunset. I would expect that from about 14 weeks of age.
Then how on earth do you simulate the flurry of activity that starts when birds flush and are shot. Two handlers giving commands simultaneously, brace mate's wanting to steal retrieves, multiple birds in the air at once and the dog must watch them all to mark the right one. Tower birds flying long distances before falling from the sky to present long blind retrieves, multiple retrieves, tracking of runners and the list goes on. We haven't even touched on hard mouth yet.
Keep the debate going, it's good for everyone. Dave
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby David Mills » Wed 20 Jun 2012 12:52 am

Wendy,
I don't blame anyone for doing what they believe is right. Just because my opinion is different certainly doesn't make me right and them wrong.
The issue i find really hard to swallow is that we have two different standards of competition and the same title to be gained.
I have never denied that QLD have produced more than their fair share of outstanding/elite class dogs and for this the whole trial fraternity can be proud.
The whole driving force behind my argument is to protect the titles gained by past champions, many of which have come from what are now non-shooting states. Fern, Gus, Bronco, Quin, Jessie are a few of the dogs that have made an everlasting impression on me. Please understand that when i voice my opinion i am going in to bat for those dogs as much as my own.
Dave
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby Prue Winkfield » Wed 20 Jun 2012 1:05 pm

Now you are cooking with gas re the titles David! John, don't know about other states but in Victoria don't believe there are any RtChs that are not shot over from time to time - ducks mainly but also quail and possibly rabbits. My two RtChs hunt quail, but must admit not ducks :cry: . Prue
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Re: NSW UFT trials

Postby Elio Colasimone » Wed 20 Jun 2012 4:51 pm

Hi all,
Good on you David for cranking up a bit of discussion in a sport some of us are passionate about !!

Utility Field Trialling – is definitely one of the gundog sports that for me, most closely resembles the type of day’s hunting that we can or used to be able to do, so if we can generate a bit more interest in it – great.

This discussion does raise a number of inter-related issues. In my view at least - except for Victoria - this sport is on ‘Life Support’ and barely hangs on by a thread. Even in Victoria – some have said – the participation rates are relatively low and newcomers are few. In competitions I judge, I keep seeing many of the same faces I saw 10, 20 even 30 years ago. Wonderful longevity and resilience, but what about the future!!

Unfortunately just to add more to the mix - this sport is self limiting. The need to find game holding grounds to develop and fine tune these dogs has always been a stumbling block. For retrieving trials I can do some basic stuff in the back yard, the park down the road, some kind farmer’s dams etc etc.

Not so for field dogs – you do need game holding localities.

ISSUE ONE: How far do we go to keep the sport alive?

The duck and quail hunting bans demanded a change in Qld.
After several years of hard lobbying the government for a return of seasons - with no success - something had to give. We had a choice of developing something we could work with and stay within the law or shut the sport down. We chose the former.
Trying to develop dogs competitively needs them to be involved in a handful of Novice/ Open Trials over the course of several years to allow them to progress. Before Non-shooting trials Qld handlers could choose to visit Victoria every few of years for some significant event but it has been out of the question for almost everyone to do it on a regular basis.

Furthermore, try telling newcomers to the sport that their only chance of testing their dogs is to travel to Victoria.

Of course as the years go by the older eligible dogs disappear and the younger dogs have no opportunity to accrue any points to enter big events - even if the handlers wanted to travel.
I’m sure folk are aware that while ‘Non – Shooting’ trials may seem odd to us, they are in fact common throughout the Field Trialling world under International FCI rules.
Basically, some of us felt we needed a reasonable field competition outlet for our Utility dogs within our own states.

ISSUE TWO: How to develop an acceptable format as closely linked as possible to traditional trials.

Some of the key players involved in this process in Qld. are quite experienced, having judged, competed and won multiple State and National Championships. None that I know is remotely interested in being awarded half-baked titles.
We decided on a slow and steady approach. After a Number of years of no trialling – we ran a couple of Novice Trials. This was followed last year by the first Open.
The process has had to be tweaked and will continue to be tweaked.

As is done at a traditional trial the dogs are drawn in braces. Handlers carry guns with blanks. Pointing dogs are expected to show a range of skills including quartering, use of breeze etc. Just as in the past solid pointing on feather or fur is mandatory and if game moves - maintaining contact. Backing dogs are expected to do it proficiently. The flush is expected to be efficient and steadiness is demanded always. The handler fires blanks at the flush.
In Open a hand held portable thrower is carried to cast a dead Jap Quail beyond the contact point at shooting distances for the dog with the find. The brace mate has to be nearby – off lead and under control during the retrieve.
Open also requires the handler to complete a significant blind retrieve in the field.
The water work etc is as per normal.

Obviously, all sorts of points/arguments can be fairly raised about the lack of challenge re: multiple distractions, falling birds, wounded birds, tracking etc. etc. vis a vis traditional trials.

Interestingly, recent experience has shown that it is hard for under done dogs or dogs with major flaws -( not backing/out of control/hard mouth) to get through and be competitive in Non-Shooing trials.
Clearly a dog that also handles poorly generally struggles to pick up a blind retrieve in moderate to heavy sub-tropical cover in the field.

Perfect it is not........but the alternative is a severe lack of or no trialling opportunities for those interested – which would ultimately lead to the disappearance of the sport from these states.

It seems to me that information sharing amongst each other about procedures used by states involved in Non-Shooting Trials would be helpful for everyone attempting to run acceptable and successful events.

ISSUE THREE: What Credits and Titles should be handed out ?

Some of the dogs that I have had the pleasure to work with or watch under this ‘ Non-Shooting’ regime certainly would stand up well in comparison to dogs I’ve worked with, seen or judged in the past. There is no issue in my mind of the awarding of points if merited.

Other dogs -however - as often happens in trials have not made the grade.

In effect we’ve had approx. 4 years of no trials and 4 years of limited Non- Shooting trials . In the latter four years only two dogs have titled in Qld – one picking up half the points in Vic and half in Qld and the other all points in Qld.
I’m certainly comfortable with that outcome which I believe is an accurate reflection of the capabilities of the dogs involved..

Thankfully there is a formal process in place to address most - if not all of the above issues especially ‘TITLE” distinctions.

The Utility Field Trial Rule Review kicks in this year.

This discussion re Titles has already been had at length in the past but I have no doubt the issue of what the ‘Title’ name should look like for dogs involved in different competitions will be raised gain. I’m sure state delegates will bring along the consensus view of participants from each state. One way or the other this will ultimately be ratified by a majority vote, hopefully to the majority’s satisfaction.

There is also another positive on the horizon.

Intense lobbying has begun in both Qld. and NSW for the return of duck and quail seasons – which if successful will change the format of the running of UFT over night in these states.
I’d advise everyone to lend a hand of support to those who are doing the hard legwork.

Cheers all,

Elio Colasimone
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