Soft or sensitive dog training

[Maureen Cooper]

Following the threads on Training Schedules I do acknowledge that both Bob and Gareth have stressed how important it is to be able to 'read your dog' but I believe both have just owned and trained males. I felt greater emphasis should be given to their comment on reading the dog. So many people try to train the second dog the same as the first and when it fails get rid of the dog.

Dogs are exactly the same as children, we have the prospective uni. graduate, the good average, the slow learner and the soft, sensitive child who needs lots of encouragement and praise because though they are actually very bright, they lack confidence in their ability. Punishment even with harsh words can crumple them. There is also the odd one that no matter how much you teach or how much time you spend on them, they remain intellectually handicapped or in a case I had briefly, she just did not like me! Life was a daily challenge making her do what I wanted and she would just look at me and the eyes would say" Make me" even when she knew exactly what I wanted.Praise, food, harsh words? I tried everything and gave up. She was the prospective criminal! She ultimately made a superb family pet and child minder!

I have had 5 bitches over the years and as they are also house pets I see totally different personalities. Owning the first two as hard going, bold extrovert and even hard headed bitches I was unprepared for a soft one. Allowing the first one to grow up was the inital key, life was just play retrieves and basic obedience. There was no pressure until she reached 12 months. Trial training was started and she handled it well and we have progressed from there. She is now in All Age but I do now realise I let her gain a little too much confidence at first so now I need the handle! First learning phase for me!

Her daughter is even more sensitive but she WANTS to learn, the puppy who would sit and look at my face from 6 weeks old, who now follows me round the garden and when I stop, is sitting looking up at me. She is a dream to train... with food and heaps of praise. She will stop at 200 metres but having learnt that I will help her there can be a tendency to pop so I turn my back on her to keep her hunting.

The new daughter is the two originals back again, hard going and a bit of a handful! Reading what you are working with is of prime importance and as Julie told me from her US trip, her professional trainer had three different trainers. If a dog stuck on a problem, it went back to a lower standard and even lower again if necessary, before it progressed onwards. It was not a case of get rid of the dog and start again.

Bitches are more often the dogs who have vastly differing temperaments and therefore need other tactics and repetition not always the answer when the dog is bright. It is often how you teach and the reward for good work. Food rewards are not always given as the dog can then learn to expect the reward rather than concentrating on the task given. Once a difficult task is learnt the food is gradually withheld.

Peter Moxon , a well known UK trainer, has written an excellent small book entitled "GUNDOGS. Questions and Answers" in which he says that " Unlike many of my colleagues, I admit to having something of a weakness for shy and sensitive dogs, having discovered that, if they can be improved, they usually make better (and easier to handle) mature workers than the bold extrovert type. They generally learn quicker, seldom forget a lesson once taught, and can be kept under good control by simple and gentle means. Like human beings, highly strung dogs are often the most brilliant at their job, even though they require more prolonged and tactful handling". He does make further comments too.

Hope this all helps someone

Maureen

[Gareth Tawton]

Maureen,

Both Dad and I both started out with bitches. However, given we have no interest in breeding we have chosen to run males as then we don't have to bother with seasons interfering with our trialling. It is very important that someone runs bitches as long as that someone isn't me

Everyone of my dogs and all the various dogs I have seen trained over the years have, just like children, different traits, personalities, quirks, level of drive etc etc. I don't believe from a training point of view whether an animal is male or female really has anything to do with your ability read your dog. There are just as many males as females with different personalities, hard soft etc etc. As handlers become more experianced they usually become better at reading the training requirements of a their dog and hopefully they also become more attuned to the timing requirements and selection of commands when both training and trialling.

I do think it is possible to get an animal that has a personality that is more suited to you as an individual. I like a harder going more outgoing dog while someone else might find the same animal over the top.

Given dogs are a pack animal no matter what breed sex or nature of animal it must see you as the leader of the pack. The minute that the animal becomes the boss or challenges for leadership is the minute your training is going to go up the sh--. I suspect that is why many women find females easier to train than males. A bitch is less likely to throw up as much of a leadership challenge as a male. Of course there is always the exception to the rule

So to me reading your dog is not about it sex it about understanding the type and method of training it requires in order to succeed. Every training program need to be adapted to the animal in question, regardless of sex.

Gareth

T

[Maureen Cooper]

Hi Gareth

Sitting here counting fingers, I began trialling 17 years ago so that would make you ???!!! and I never remember seeing you with a bitch but I do remember your GSP, Jake, so dont think the bitch was trialled much at the tender age you would be!!!. You must have been just out of pull-ups!!!
( I'll be on my guard for the clip round the ear at Easter!)

However, again I must agree with you re choosing a dog to suit your personality. I have oodles of admiration for Kirsty with Nelson, he would drive me mad! yet she remains calm and (usually) in control while I turn into the fishwife! I love the dogs with dash and drive but they can be so self willed. I guess the major way we ladies have the advantage training our dogs is that our voices mean we can go from fishwife to sugar coated in 0 seconds!

Yes, males do usually try to be pack leader but as your smilie said so can some bitches and I have run a male too.

I guess the point of the article is recognising the soft but bright dog, male or female, and adapting the training to suit the dog, adhering to a rigid schedule not always the answer, there can be more than one way to get the result you want. Also sometimes a swift demo. of who's boss even with a soft dog can work wonders, I spent ages teaching 'hold' to my softest and the command was truly understood but in a training session she would sometimes put down the bird even when told to hold. Totally exasperated one day ( and totally wrong I felt at the time) I gave her a light clip when she once again put the bird down even after the command and ..... she has never put a bird down since! Obviously even a soft dog can think it can put one over you! Teaching dogs is such a learning process for us all, even when we think we have all the answers.

CU @ Easter
Maureen

[Andre Fendlason]

Maureen/Gareth

Not trying to side track this thread and turn it into another e-collar debate but here is something you may find interesting.

Having worked with mainly Goldens over the years it has become something of a specialty on my part in being "creative" in dealing with their somewhat different working attitude. Most of the creative measures taken have been done in an attempt to find ways of dealing with the less than perfect ways they can respond to pressure.

I have seen dogs (particularly female) that can be simply crushed with nothing more than some sound of displeasure in their trainers voice. Others can be chased and beaten however you choose to no effect. The point being that they vary tremendously in how they deal with the various types of pressure. Just as you pointed out earlier.

Now here is the good part...

Those soft dogs which might cower at a voice simply raised a notch or two can also be very adapt at dealing with e-collar corrections.

I have yet to make up my mind why this is often the case but I am leaning toward the possibility that the dog is more accepting of the e-collar correction due to the fact that it is not directly associated as coming from the trainer as a voice command would be.

On a similar note...

I find that without exception every dog I have dealt with that could be said to be "soft" but which also responded to e-collar pressure in a healthy way was a dog that would out perform every other dog on the grounds. Their desire to please being all important.

I don't remember where I saw it but US trainer Mike Lardy once published a small diagram depicting some aspects of softness in dogs and what range he considered ideal. If I remember correctly his preference was toward the softer dog and some of his top winners were typically that.

Like you I do not recommend washing out a dog simply for some perceived level of softness. Difference is I probably look for that as somewhat desirable in conjunction with other traits.

Never discount the e-collar as a possibility as it might just be the answer for that soft dog and you may end up with your best dog ever.

Anyone want to talk about Hard Headed Soft Dogs? Talk about a nightmare...

André

[Prue Winkfield]

Hi Andre - yes know all about hard headed soft dogs -have a bitch just like that - difficult to handle as it is hard to correct her but she is dynamite in the field - in my experience you have to work much harder with this sort and the results can be excellent. If I had her when I was working, she would have been washed out years ago but fortunately now have the time to put in and she is working well for me. Prue

[Gareth Tawton]

Maureen,

I hear age can affect the memory. My first dog was a bitch given to me by the late Westy Morris, Ruvalan Gemalli (Gemma) I competed in her first trial in 1985 in Perth of all places. We were over for the National. I also ran in her in Utility field trials. I later bred Jake from her to Dads dog Homah.

Andre,

I have seen the diagram you are talking about on mikes website. My experiance is just the same. My current All Age dog is much softer yet quite hard running. My previous model so to speak was all fire and brimstone great fun to train but frustrating when he went over the top. I find softer dog not only much more pleasurable to train but probably more importantly as he is my pet, he is great to have around the house, hunting and anywhere else you may take him.

Gareth