Improving marking on the second bird of a double

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Improving marking on the second bird of a double

Postby Jason Ferris » Tue 24 Apr 2007 12:54 pm

Hi all

I have noticed that both my dogs mark reasonably well on a single mark or on the first bird of a double, but their marking on the second and third bird is not as precise - often requiring a larger and longer hunt, and sometimes handling to get back in the area. It doesn't seem to matter whether they have retrieved the last bird down or selected one of the earlier falls as the first retrieve.

Because it is common to both dogs, I suspect it is a gap in my training. Both were introduced to multiple marks by throwing two birds as singles then repeating as a double, then later throwing one bird as a single and using it as the memory bird on a double. Both are in restricted.

Does anyone have any suggestions on training setups to help with this?

Cheers, Jason.
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Postby Graeme Parkinson » Wed 25 Apr 2007 8:18 am

Jason,

I don't believe I am a great trainer but I do believe we could do with more participation here. So here are my thoughts.

Often our individual problems require a little bit of innovation. If I had a similar problem I would probably try something like this.

In light cover set two throwers 10 mtrs apart throwing in oposite directions and using white dummies.

:) < 10 mtrs > :)

This should have the birds about 50 mtrs apart. Now take the dogs back 30 mtrs. Do it as a double, in light cover the dog should have no problems. Now using the same set up but retreat 60 mtrs. And then 90 mtrs. Once you have done that call it a day. Do this a couple of times in different areas. Then using the same set up (different area) start at 60 mtrs, then after the dogs a successfully doing that start at 90 mtrs. Finally work this until you can do two reps starting at 120 mtrs then one rep at 150 mtrs.

This starts the dogs a wide angles reducing the influence the birds have on one another and the light cover ensures an easy fast find. I would think every day for up to two weeks, let the dogs set the pace. Vary the order of throw and the order of pick up. How long the dogs have been doing it poorly will determine how long the fix will take. The more thorough you are the better the fix.

From here you could do any one of three things:
a. repeat the process in medium cover,
b. repeat the process in light cover and vary the angle of the throwers so that one angles in, the other away, or
c. combine both of the above.

Don't rush let the dogs progress determine what action you take.

Good luck

Graeme
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Postby FOM - Lainee » Wed 25 Apr 2007 10:56 am

Here is my take: SLOW DOWN in training. Sounds like your dog can count to two but is not marking very well and/or showing poor memory.

First throw your memory bird and enforce sit means sit and make them focus on that bird, that means you can not move or indicate that the bird just thrown is not going to be anything but a single. The dog will get nervous, it is natural you just broke your cadence, he might even look up at you, but put your hand down and repeat your cue to make him lock in. Once he has a chance to settle down, then and only then line up for you go-bird. Now it is tempting to send him right away but repeat the above sequence, take your time - "sweat the dog" even a little, then send.

What you are doing is focusing the dog, extending his memory about the AOF. In training you control the "timing" of the falls and you are not at the mercy of the judges, use this to your advantage. Also take your time even if running singles.

My other guess is these dogs are high desire dogs?

Lainee, Flash and Bullet
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Postby Jason Ferris » Wed 25 Apr 2007 11:10 am

Thanks Graeme and Lainee for those useful suggestions. I'll give them both a try as I think they are nicely compatible.

Lainee - yes I would consider my dogs to be reasonably high desire. One is from Julie's breeding which you are familar with (a sister of Yo's but from the first Stamp/Sesame litter). What impact do you think that has on memory and marking?

Cheers, Jason.
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Postby FOM - Lainee » Wed 25 Apr 2007 12:24 pm

I have seen high desire dogs miss marks just because they are so high with the desire to retrieve that they do not focus. Without focus how can the remember anything? Make sense? So by slowing down you are putting the requirment of remembering where the birds are on the dog, that is your job, help the dog mark, but marking and remembering is the dog's job.....hope that answers your question.

Lainee, Flash and Bullet
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Postby Jason Ferris » Wed 25 Apr 2007 1:11 pm

I have done lots of work on focus and I think they do a pretty good job of it. Similarly I thinking their marking is ok (as demonstrated on single marks anyway), so I think the key problem is memory. Hopefully Graeme's success based drill will help with that.

Thanks again,

Jason.
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Postby Peter Betteridge » Thu 26 Apr 2007 1:07 pm

Jason wrote
have noticed that both my dogs mark reasonably well on a single mark or on the first bird of a double, but their marking on the second and third bird is not as precise - often requiring a larger and longer hunt, and sometimes handling to get back in the area. It doesn't seem to matter whether they have retrieved the last bird down or selected one of the earlier falls as the first retrieve.

here is my 2 cents worth although I have only ever owned one dog that could mark really well
I am not a believer in building doubles or triples or using memory birds.If I was you I would go back to hand thrown doubles then triples then quads.I would pick them up in the order that they were thrown. I would then get my helper to throw a simple mark for me in very light cover. have your helper move 20 metres away and throw another simple single. Pick up the first single and then have your dog watch a 3rd single.Pick up the second single, watch the 4th single etc. At first have the bumpers visable to the dog at the line then slowly increase the difficulty level. Go back to the same piece of terrain tomorrow and do the same thing but put the marks in different places
hope this helps
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Postby Jason Ferris » Thu 26 Apr 2007 1:16 pm

Thanks Peter. That is another good idea that I haven't come across.

Cheers, Jason.
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Something simple

Postby Wayne Parkinson » Thu 03 May 2007 9:56 am

Something simple to add to the mix.

You get home from work. Your tired, its late, it doesn't matter what time I used to do it in the dark with young dogs.
You throw a dummy for the dog.
Heal the dog away and go do some work, with the dog or without, healing, wagon wheel, walking baseball whatever. or you could put the dog away and go do the dishes. Personally I would be playing with the dog but that's up to you.

Bring the dog back and que it for the dummy. then send.
Start with a short time delay and then you can increase time and distraction. I usually start with just heal away and delay a minute or two. then came back, que and send.
You can get to the stage of going to a training site getting out the car and throwing one. go train for an hour and then come back and que the dog then send
It is so simple I had forgotten it.
Does it work? Try it and make up your own mind.
I am going to start using it again.

Wayne P.
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Thu 03 May 2007 10:16 am

To extend Wayne's suggestion - you can also go for a bit of a walk with the dog throwing multiple dummies as you go then turn around and start sending the dog - helps if you can remember where they are! :lol: Can start with one and build up to as many as you like - helps with relocations as well as multiples. I had also forgotten about this now I have bumper boys to make life easier.
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Postby Graeme Parkinson » Thu 03 May 2007 9:43 pm

Prue

So nice to see you back. Tell us how you are getting on. Are you repairing well? How long will your recovery take?

Graeme
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Sun 06 May 2007 12:13 pm

Graeme - I am sort of back but one of the most painful things is operating the mouse for some reason which means I am not typing much here :( - saving up my comments on rubber ducks,etc. - just over two weeks before a progress report. Meanwhile I am having two dogs trained for me - perhaps this is the answer for low numbers - professional trainers for those who can't do it themselves :lol:
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Postby Diane McCann » Wed 30 May 2007 11:27 am

Haven't managed to get onto this site much recently so have just caught up with this thread. What great ideas from everyone - thank you.

Isn't it amazing how you hear a training idea, think how great it is and how much help it will be to you, and then forget all about it?

The really good thing about all of these marking tips is that they are simple and can generally be accomplished alone or with one helper.

OK, this time I am going to remember to incorporate these drills the next time that I train, and I am going to keep doing it for longer than a month -truly!
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Postby Tony Rowland » Sun 01 Jul 2007 11:15 pm

hi all

I have been working on this with my dog and as i was driving to training I had a thought of a variation to graemes drill.

The variation is to set the throwers as per graemes set up 10 metres apart in oposite directions,but i set one up 10- 20 metres deeper, in the centre of the padddock or in my case swampy vacant industial block.

Then if the throwers where facing at 3 and 9 oclock i positioned at 12 then 6 then 2 then 4 the 11 and so on getting wider, which seemed to work well all at about 30 out to 50 metres, i just walked to the centre to reload.

This seemed to give the dog multiple marks with different angle (almost different marks) and was easy to work. If there was a problem i re-ran or sometimes i switched order and re-ran.

tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
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