Repeating Marks

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Repeating Marks

Postby Tony Rowland » Thu 10 Jul 2008 9:38 pm

Hi all

Saw this thread http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/show ... p?t=632379
and thought - how does this fit to our double rise, Any comment ? :roll: :o :?

tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
Tony Rowland
 
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Re: Repeating Marks

Postby Joe Law » Fri 11 Jul 2008 11:59 am

Thank you, Tony, for providing this link. Apart from the many interesting views expressed on this forum I am sure there is material that has implications for how we should and should not train for and assess our double-rise test. It seems that American field trials are more clinical and refined than Australian retrieving trials and I can't imagine our American friends entertaining the idea of a double-rise as an acceptable test of good dog work. On the other hand our rules make no secret of the fact that our trials set out to emulate the situation of a shooter and his or her dog on a hunting excursion. In this case the double-rise test aims to reproduce the situation where a shooter discharges both barrels and more than one bird falls in a given area. In these situations even the shooter is sometimes unable to accurately mark the fall of more than one bird and therefore trusts his or her dog to return (when sent) to the area of the first fall an continue the search without further assistance. I believe our rules should therefore be interpreted to reflect what would be a reasonable and realistic approach for shooters who happen to find themselves in this situation while at the same time accepting that there is a need to apply some sensible boundaries that may need to be put in place in order to provide an acceptable competition.
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Re: Repeating Marks

Postby Tony Rowland » Fri 11 Jul 2008 9:36 pm

I came across another thread in the same vane but on blinds http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/show ... p?t=632945
these guy have some intesting things to say. :shock: :roll: :o
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
Tony Rowland
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue 04 Apr 2006 9:35 pm
Location: NEWCASTLE

Re: Repeating Marks

Postby Kirsty Blair » Sat 12 Jul 2008 1:33 pm

Hi Tony,

Thanks so much for posting links to those two threads. They are very interesting reading. If anything they serve to reinforce the fact that many different techniques and training methodologies still work to achieve the same end.

What's your opinion on repeating marks? Do you do it and if so, when and why?

Cheers
Kirsty
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Re: Repeating Marks

Postby Robert Tawton » Wed 06 Aug 2008 12:25 pm

Hi Kirsty,

Like so many questions that appear on this website, it is difficult to offer a definitive response because the question can be likened to “how long is a piece of string?” In posing the question did you have in mind a young dog first starting out where depth perception and line are the primary concerns, or did you have in mind a dog transitioning from single marks to multiple marks, or were you thinking about teaching an advanced dog to fight “factors” such as remote angle entries into water or a holding its line across sloping ground? Each of these scenarios will produce a different answer to your original question.

In general terms, there are two schools of thought about repeating marks where the primary objective is for the dog to “mark the fall” and recover the item of game without handler assistance. By far the biggest body of opinion is that you do not repeat such marks as it may encourage the dog to return to old falls, or alternatively, the dog does not learn how to solve the initial problem since on each repeat it “knows in advance” where to go. If a dog does experience difficulty with a particular “mark”, this body of opinion favours repeating the concept (distance, terrain, wind etc) at a different location.

An alternative view is that you repeat marks until the dog gets it perfect. The supporters of this approach liken it to a marksman repeating the same shot over and over (with minor corrections to his weapon or "hold point" along the way) until he can hit the “bull’s eye” each and every time. In other words, the repetition helps the dog to get “its eye in” for the task at hand.

Now consider teaching the dog to do multiple retrieves. Initially, at least, the primary objective changes from “marking” as such, to a memory exercise for the dog and for the dog to understand the concept of having to retrieve multiple items of game in an order specified by its handler. The most favoured approach is to “build” the concept i.e. in a triple set up each of the “marks” would be undertaken as single retrieves. Then “Marks” Nos 1 & 2 would be repeated as a pair. “Marks” Nos 1 & 3 may be repeated as a pair and similarly Nos 2 & 3 may be repeated as a pair. Finally all three “marks” would be cast and retrieved as a triple. In this scenario the focus is more on developing the dog’s memory and understanding of the concept than it is on “marking” as such. It is interesting to note that the great trainers like Danny Farmer do lots of single “marks” to hone the dog’s “marking” skills and multiple setups are reserved for developing memory and understanding of concepts.

Finally, Danny Farmer et al, will repeat single “marks” if they are teaching a dog to fight factors such as a side hill or wind. Consider the single “mark” across a side hill and the dog starts to “fade” down the hill. In this scenario, as soon as the handler detects the dog “fading with the hill” the handler would stop the dog and then give it the relevant cast to straighten its line. The “mark” would then be repeated to see if the dog learned from the exercise and would now hold its line.

I trust the above provides some insight into the issues and I will be happy to field questions.

Regards, RWT
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Re: Repeating Marks

Postby Tony Rowland » Thu 04 Sep 2008 7:12 pm

HI ALL

Just looking at my favorites and came cross this link, it is a tip by mike lardy on this subject :o :o

http://www.totalretriever.com/tip7.htm

hope it is of interest to some. there are also many other tips which could be of interest.

Tony
working with the grey ghost, can be like catching fly with chop stick''
Tony Rowland
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue 04 Apr 2006 9:35 pm
Location: NEWCASTLE


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