Over Running Marks

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Postby Kirsty Blair » Mon 08 Mar 2004 2:16 pm

Wow! Thank you so much Julie and Kim for a great read. I can't wait for the next instalment :D

Kirsty
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Postby Mark Sewell » Mon 08 Mar 2004 2:20 pm

Dido :D

Edit: Whoops I meant Ditto!! Thanks Kirsty.
Last edited by Mark Sewell on Mon 08 Mar 2004 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jason Ferris » Mon 08 Mar 2004 2:32 pm

Thanks from me too. A very interesting read.

Cheers, Jason.
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Postby Kirsty Blair » Mon 08 Mar 2004 2:42 pm

Mark Sewell wrote:Dido :D


Hi Mark,

She's an excellent singer isn't she? :wink:

Kirsty "I'm So Funny" Gray
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Postby Prue Winkfield » Mon 08 Mar 2004 5:18 pm

Great stuff Julie!
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Postby Julie Cramond » Mon 08 Mar 2004 5:57 pm

Goodness guys and gals. I am glad you enjoyed it.

By your praise I felt as if I had helped write the book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, not just help type extracts onto the forum. LOL.

I will type some more tomorrow, after I learn to transfer from Word into this site.

I wish to repeat my thanks to the author, Dr. Jack Gwaltney, in allowing me to use his book, on this proud to be, Australian site.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:15 pm

PICKING UP THE DOG WHEN IT OVERRUNS

As discussed earlier, a particularly challenging type of short mark in a triple (or quad), is an indented placement in which the "indent" is placed at a shorter distance than the other marks, one of which is retrieved first. Thus, the dog goes long on the "go bird" (first bird retrieved) and must then pull up short for the indent. When a dog over runs the indent in training, it should be stopped and handled back to tthe mark and THEN PUT BACK ON THE TRUCK, without being allowed to retrieve the other long bird. This way of training for short indented birds, while frustrating to the trainer, is probably the most effective way to teach this concept. This usually has to be repeated a number of times before dogs become consistent in handling indents.

Julie - the above may be confusing for some of us, but I will explain go bird and order of retrieve (selection) later.

EXPERIENCE VERSUS EXPECTATION.

As has been pointed out, the dog's perception often oppears to be influenced by what it next expects to hapen rather than what it just saw. This may be the cause of poor marking. Other possible causes for port marking ORTHER THAN POOR MEMORY include poor vision, poor motivation, and illness or injury (as previously typed). This leaves instances in which expectation overrides experience. An example of such an expectation which would lead to overrunning a mark is the dog's fear that it would receive a correction if it shows down. This might occur in dogs who have ben forced too often through areas of scent and old falls or who have been severely corrected for hunting behind throwers. Another expectation leading to overrunning might occur in dogs consistently trained on long and very long marks. Conversely, training primarily on short and medium length marks would lead to an expectation which prevents success with long retired guns. The common denominator in these and other such problems is either fear generated by unskilled use of the electric collar or inexperience from lack of balance in training. In reading the behavior of dogs who are not marking well, the principle of expectation overriding experience is a good one to remember. Of course, this will not always be case and at some point is may be correct to conclude that a dog just does not have a very good memory.

Julie - Sorry about collar references I am typing straight from the book.

I wish I could draw pictures of multiple placement concepts that are used in training but unfortunately I do not have the capability. Jason any ideas?
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Postby Julie Cramond » Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:33 pm

THE FOLLOWING IS A TABLE DETAILING DIFFICULTY OF BIRD PLACEMENT IN TRIALS AND TRAINING, that I found very interesting.

In my opinion, Australian trials are conceptually very difficult. I love the challenge especially as our dogs are required to pick up birds that a dog would not normally select first. I only add this as in my discussions with American pros and amateurs of US field trials and US AKC hunt tests, they are surprised that in Australia our judges SELECT order of bird pick up. They are doubly surprised how well our dogs do IT. Added to the fact that in All Age trials we will be required to pick up birds out of order, long bird first and blinds before marks. Remember too our marks are thrown from hidden silent bird launchers ie no throwers in white, no duck calls or other attention seeking devices.

Anyway back to the TABLE:

G E N E R A L

FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL PLACEMENT multiply the total difficulty score by 1.3 if the bird throwers retire and an additional 1.3 if the placement involves water

FOR THE ENTIRE TEST multiply sum of difficulty scores of individual placements by 1.2 for double, 1.3 for triple, 1.3 for quad.

I N D I V I D U A L P L A C E M E N T

CONTOUR OF TERRAIN flat +1, side hill +2, over crest of hill +2, lose sight of gun station +2

COVER short +1, moderate +2, heavy +3, extra heavy +4

WIND up +1, down +3, cross of bird - 1, cross away from bird +3, absent +3.

VISIBILITY good +1, fair +2, poor +3, very poor +4

BIRDS duck +1, rooster pheasant +2, hen pheasant +3, liver flier add additional +1

Julie - just in case I lose this I will submit this and continue
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Pictures

Postby Jason Ferris » Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:44 pm

Julie Cramond wrote:I wish I could draw pictures of multiple placement concepts that are used in training but unfortunately I do not have the capability. Jason any ideas?


Hi Julie

My only suggestion would be to draw the diagrams in a drawing package (Microsoft Paint will do if they are simple), save them as a .jpg file and load them up to Hunt101.com and link them to a post (like we did for the photos in December). A bit complicated but it does work.

I just went searching for Jack Gwaltney's book. It seems to be out of print. Do you know if he has plans to reprint it? Thanks to him for agreeing to let you load part of it up to this site.

Cheers, Jason.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:48 pm

LINE simple +1, intermediate +2, complex + 3 (complex lines include: land-water-land, changing slopes, obstacles, angles into water or cover, lines along edge of water, long water entries, lines past points of land or cover), very complex +4

DISTANCE short +1, medium +2, long +3, extra long +4.

SPACING open +1, moderately tight +2, tight +3

ORDER OF THROW last +1, firist +2, 2nd and 3rd +3, (out of order additional +1, following out of order flier additional +2)

CONFIGURATION over/under +3, indent +3 (with lead out flier +5), under arc +4

SPECIAL TERRAIN plough, muck, hidden water, asphalt, or anything "strange" for a dog +3

SPECIAL PLACEMENT point of cover, across water, on island, base of tree, behind real or apparent obstruction +3, splash in water -1

Any questions? Maybe it would be easier to have a discussion, rather than me trying to explain the differences, which many already know. Oh the confusion of training and when to add the Australian requirements in a dog's training!!!!!! from the football field to the paddock.

Please forgive me for the typing errors. I am trying.
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Postby Julie Cramond » Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:51 pm

Jason,

I pre empted our interest in Jacks book. He is sending me 20 copies if anyone wants one.
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Postby Jason Ferris » Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:13 pm

Hi Julie

Put me down for a copy please. I will pick it up at the Lab Club trial.

For those who may be interested here is more background on Jack's book -

Training and Campaigning Retrievers - The Principles and Practice by Jack M Gwaltney, Jr. M.D. 1999. 3rd Edition. 171 pages. Softcover.

Image

CONTENTS

Chapter 1 THE NATURE OF THE SPORT

Chapter 2 LEARNING ABILITY OF THE RETRIEVER

Chapter 3 INSIDE THE DOG'S HEAD

Chapter 4 BASIC ELEMENTS OF TRAINING Education Discipline Punishment Praise

Chapter 5 MARKING Marking Theory Factors Influencing the Difficulty of Marks

Chapter 6 HUNTING Hunting Theory Factors Influencing the Difficulty of Marks

Chapter 7 BLIND RETRIEVES

Chapter 8 MOMENTUM Assessing Momentum Problems

Chapter 9 TRAINING PRACTICE Training Schedule for Young Retrievers Training Program for Advanced Dogs

Chapter 10 CRITICAL EVENTS IN TRAINING

Chapter 11 HANDLING Handling Techniques Mind Set for Running Blinds Reading Multiple Marks and Selection

Chapter 12 BIRD PLACEMENT IN TRIALS AND TRAINING

Chapter 13 CAMPAIGNING The Will to Win Handling at Field Trials

Chapter 14 POLITICS

Chapter 15 EVALUATING QUALITIES AND PERFROMANCE Essential Qualities Charting Performance at Field Trials

Chapter 16 READING THE DOG AND CASE STUDIES
Case 1 Dense Cover/Failure to Go
Case 2 Miscommunication between Handler and Dog/Bird Thrower Error
Case 3 Forgotten Mark/Refusal to Go
Case 4 Shore Line Blind/Handling Error
Case 5 Breaking
Case 6 Failure to Hold Cross-wind Lines
Case 7 Dropping Bird
Case 8 Bank Running
Case 9 Creeping
Case 10 Returning to an Old Fall
Case 11 Failure to Remember Marks
Case 12 "Freezing" in the Field
Case 13 Out of Control on a Blind
Case 14 Hunting at the End of a Blind
Case 15 Bolting

Chapter 17 OTHER SOURCES OF INFORMATION
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Postby Gareth Tawton » Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:54 pm

Julie,

You truly are the typing goddess of gundogs :D I wouldn't have a hope in hell of typing that much :!: Its all great reading and I would love a copy of the book to add to my collection.

Thanks,

Gareth
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Postby Teresa Parkinson » Tue 09 Mar 2004 2:03 pm

Hi Julie!

Unfortunately, I haven't got time to read it all at work today so have printed it off, ready to read when I get home instead! Thanks for sharing the info. What I've seen of it, it's going to make very interesting reading.

Could you put me down for a copy of the book too please? Like Jason, I'll be happy to collect it at the Lab Club trial assuming they've arrived by then.

Teresap
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Postby Laraine Frawley » Tue 09 Mar 2004 2:50 pm

Hi Julie

I also would like a copy of the book. Any idea of costs? I will be at the trials at Easter.

Laraine
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