where do I start

Post questions about training here to draw on the collective knowledge of the bulletin board members!

Moderator: Peter Butterfield

where do I start

Postby val mclennan » Tue 14 Jun 2005 10:58 am

Hi, :D
My cocker spaniel pup is now 6 months and we are attending Hills obed school but I always wanted to try field work . We attended a begininers day about a month ago which we both had so much fun. So what do we do now, are there any training days, or club that we need to find never having done this before really need a lot of help and advice. :?
val mclennan
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat 30 Oct 2004 5:42 pm
Location: Hills district Sydney

Where do I start?

Postby Bill Bailey » Wed 15 Jun 2005 11:51 am

Dear Val,
I live in Dural and would be happy to help with advice when I can. Before giving advice I think it is a good idea to have actually seen the student in action, as advice often has to be modified to suit the dog concerned.
Please phone me if you like on 02-9651-6247.
Regards Bill Bailey.
Bill Bailey
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:54 am
Location: sydney

Postby val mclennan » Fri 17 Jun 2005 7:33 pm

Thanks Bill,
I would like to know how you start so far she can fetch balls, a dummy that we brought at the beginners day she also picked up a bird that day and gave it back we were impressed. I have'nt used the dummy that much as she started to chew it so I've not given it back she also plays a good game of find the house which means I hide a toy around the room and she has to find it. Her tail is up high a wagging none stop and the nose is down I started giving her directions when we first started the game.
val mclennan
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat 30 Oct 2004 5:42 pm
Location: Hills district Sydney

Where do I start?

Postby Bill Bailey » Mon 20 Jun 2005 11:43 am

Dear Val,
Thanks for your response your student sounds promising. My preference is to speak to you as there is quite a bit to know about avoiding mistakes and building sound working habits. Very often the problem arises by the way the new instructer follows their instructions or even their sense of timing as to when to introduce a particular training exercise.
For example when a young dog with the desired interest in finding and retrieving game is given an opportunity to retrieve something that it cannot damage. It will usually retrieve it quite satisfactorily. But being young and possibly overly enthusiastic when it is given an opportunity to retrieve "real" game that can easily be damaged. It is almost certain to damage it and thus run a serious risk of developing a serious fault.
By all means encourage your dog to first gently hold whatever he is given in his mouth for a few seconds. Then take it from him very gently. Hold your dog securely then throw what is to be retrieved a short distance. Let him wait a second or two before he is sent to retrieve. Gradually increase the waiting time as he gets the idea of what is required.
You must gently and gradually teach him to hold what he is given, firmly enough so that he can carry it without any danger of it being dropped but gently enough to avoid any possibility of damage to "game".
What ever you do do not allow your perfect natural enthusiasm for your dog's numerous perfections to lead you into the mistake of "going too fast".
What you first have to do is build a genuine feeling of trust between you and your dog that will last for his lifetime. Avoid like the plague losing your temper when he makes what you think is a mistake or simple disobedience. You have to learn to teach your dog by setting up the situation so that he does not know that he is learning anything. He cannot be disobedient until he has already learned the lesson and then deliberately does somehing else. If he makes a mistake that is the teacher fault for not setting the exercise correctly.
Any dog young or old can only learn at his own pace not the instructor's. You have to provide "stepping stones" to take your dog from where he is now to where you want him to be in terms of ability to work together.
Most people think they have a wonderful relationship with their dog, the test is to look at it from the dog's point of view.
All going well you could be in the happy position of apparently leading a National Field, your wonderful dog is 180 metres away, with a swamp full of interesting scents on his right. If he promptly obeys your next command and goes to the left you could win the trial. If he ignores you and goes to the right and vanishes out of sight, you could easily be called in by the judge and you are out of the trial.
So I think with a 6 month old pup I would concentrate on the following.
Improve your own training knowledge.
Build a close relationship in which you are equals but you have the casting vote in retrieving matters.
Build his physical fitness having due regard to his age.
Ensure that he is physically sound and his nutrition is as it should be.
Stay away from retrieving "game" that he might damage accidently.
If it would suit you I would be happy to explain the work required in more detail, preferably on the phone or in person as I am not the world's fastest typist.
He sounds like a nice dog and I would be delighted if I could help you to turn him into a Champion.
Regards Bill Bailey.
Bill Bailey
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:54 am
Location: sydney

Re: Where do I start?

Postby Bill Bailey » Mon 20 Jun 2005 5:07 pm

Dear Val,
My apologies, I should of said that "she is a nice dog". Hope she becomes an even better one over time.
Have just had an eye operation which probably helps to make me more "one-eyed than usual". Should be able to see what I am doing more clearly in a week or two.
Regards Bill Bailey.
Bill Bailey
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:54 am
Location: sydney

Postby val mclennan » Thu 23 Jun 2005 10:05 pm

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the long reply I've printed it off so I will read it throughly.
My main question would be that I've been going to Obedience school each week and practicing our lessons during the week. How much of this is relevant to field work ? We had been going really well until this last couple of weeks when she has decided to forget everything she has been taught and not listening or even looking at me more interested in sniffing the ground which is very frowned upon and I've been told to get tough with her and command her attention and make her do what she is told. Less than a month ago we were the star pupil showing the others how to heel, our stays were good and her focus was on me the whole time. But walking around the block she is very out of hand and pulling me the whole time. Not wanting to wreck our good heeling I'm now confussed. The instructors are saying make her behave and I've tried making her but want her to trust me and not fear me. I've trained Airedale Terriers before had a male and female at the same time got the girl to CD standard my boy did'nt quite make CD. My girl would heel really well on lead but off lead would wander further away. I always thought this was because she was trained with the correction collar and made to work rather than wanting to. They both made it 11 and 12 years of age before departing to dog heaven. So its been quite a while since I had a pup so I'm also not sure if I'm expecting to much from a pup who is very lively, with built in jumping beans that go on and on all day and till at least 9.30 each night.
I suppose it all comes down to not really wanting to make her work but how do I coax her with out letting her think she is boss and getting her own way :? She is quite stubborn but does learn very quickly and is this helping us toward field work worring about how well she can heel.

Val
val mclennan
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat 30 Oct 2004 5:42 pm
Location: Hills district Sydney

Re: Where do I start?

Postby Bill Bailey » Mon 27 Jun 2005 6:00 pm

Dear Val,
Obedience work is relevant to field work as a dog in the field could be working a couple of hundred metres away from you in a swamp or other interesting country. As a result a dog has to learn to concentrate on analyzing the scents and seek to quickly locate the source of the relevant scent that will lead him to the game he has been sent to retrieve. This is not an easy task, as he also has to quickly respond to his handler’s commands. It is important to realize the difficulty of his task. I suggest to new handler’s that they try singing correctly “Mary had a little lamb” while they divide 3,423 by 11.25. It sounds daft but it is a good way to understand what is expected of a field dog.

The main danger of normal club obedience training is that while it can be a fascinating exercise for handlers as they drill their dogs I do not think many dogs share their handler’s enthusiasm. The result can be to gradually diminish the dog’s natural enthusiasm and brightness in his work. This is not to denigrate obedience training, just watch the boredom level in your dog.

In assessing competitive obedience work obedience instructors are only interested in say, whether one dog heels more closely and continuously than another. In fieldwork judges take account of a dog’s ability to take directions from his handler but if obedience is comparable in two dogs the win will usually go to the dog “that does the best work”. That is the dog that demonstrates interest and enthusiasm in working with his handler, use of nose to locate game, ability to cope with difficult or unfriendly terrain etc.

The natural enthusiasm with which a dog does his work should never be diminished; the trick is to gradually build a highly competent and enthusiastic dog that is obedient as well. This takes time, as “Old heads are not often found on young dogs”.

I tried to differentiate between obedience and retrieving work in my dog’s mind. I used to wear different clothes and use different areas for the two types of training. My body language towards my dog was also different. In obedience I was the boss, in the field we worked together but I had the casting vote. I tried to only give a command that would as quickly as possible give my dog a “benefit” like winding the game and so on.

I think obedience training should be done initially when your dog is relaxed and not overly enthusiastic. Especially initially it is a low level of enthusiasm activity. Enthusiasm should only be introduced gradually when willing obedience has been thoroughly absorbed and become a habit. Obedience work for a retriever should include heeling with a dummy or holding dummy and sitting for a little while before delivery was made. Actual retrieving was not practiced until heeling, sitting, staying, picking up dummy (from a standing position) and delivery to hand were all well established. Try to avoid a situation where a fault becomes accepted in the excitement of making a retrieve. Get the individual basics right and then put it all together in a simple retrieve and build on correct habits. Try to avoid faults occurring rather than trying to fix faults, which should never have occurred.

With any training you cannot always accurately diagnose what is causing a particular problem. All you can do is try something gently without hostile body language and watch your dog’s response. Sometimes you will try something and it will apparently fail. Next time you try it works! Nobody can tell you why, I think you have to try and understand your dog and try and build what I call co-operative obedience.
So far as sniffing and loss of interest in you is concerned you may have unwittingly “lighted a spark” of retrieving interest in your dog by introducing retrieving work into its life. As a result it is more interested in hunting than it was before. It may also just be part of its normal development as a dog wi5th retrieving instincts. I would suggest that you relax, your dog is very young, learning is not a process of continuous of success. Level of success will vary; new ideas from you or elsewhere can push earlier ideas out of your dog’s “memory box”. Just return to basics and retrain again. Regular revision is an essential part of training.

Heeling - My way of training to heel might be a good illustration of my way of achieving “co-operative obedience”. I would walk my dog at heel on a strong short lead attached to his check chain. Say “Heel” and step off slowly on my left foot. As I expected my dog would surge forward against the lead. I would then growl as though I really meant it and say “No”. Then I would pull back a little bit on his lead and say “Heel”. I would repeat “nudging my dog in the required direction” until he got the message and moved back to the correct position. Then I would say “Good Dog” with sincerity and give him a pat and then start again. Eventually he would heel, forward, backward, figures of eight, U turns left and right, walking slowly, quickly or running.
Regards Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:54 am
Location: sydney


Return to Training Q&A

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests